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  • Reeve of Shinra
    replied
    I honestly don't think the present situation is totally Jelsoft's fault at all. Nor is it Ray Morgan's fault either. In my judgement the user community is being unreasonable and imposing unrealistic expectations.
    It is totally IB's fault -- Steve and rest of the support team predicted the reactions these changes would bring MONTHS ago and Ray said they would revisit the issues. Nothing was changed.

    It's IB's fault because they should have known that people would expect to see
    - A beta they can try out for themselves
    - A Demo of the entire solution in action
    - An estimated release date (which had to pulled from them).

    Its also not unreasonable to ask for a working demo when the IB team has shown that they can't even code their own tools correctly.

    a) Their own pricing tool wasn't even able to support their own needs and had to have code tossed in at the last moment.

    b) Their new members area didn't even reflect the correct info

    c) Lastly, even with the time they spent on an initial FAQ, they FAILED to even touch on the barrage of concerns their paying customers brought up. If they do not have the forsight to see this, how do they have the forsight to see what -WE- want in terms of a FORUM, a CMS, a BLOG, or in terms of USABILITY.

    Leave a comment:


  • kyrgyz
    replied
    Originally posted by websissy View Post
    Dear IntoSpain and jadmperry,

    Actually you do have a release date and schedule. It was given by Vbulletin's General Manager, Ray Morgan, on Thursday afternoon who was under direct pressure from users just like you. Here is a link to that post: Projected Release Date. I think it was regrettable Mr. Morgan felt it necessary to announce such a schedule. But I'll be the first to admit my own (choose your words: less optimistic / more realistic) professional guesstimates here that same day concerning the likely delivery schedule (which later vanished) probably contributed to the pressure on Morgan to commit to a date. I regret the fact that my effort to help by explaining things ended up putting Morgan on a laser-heated hot seat. In hindsight THAT wasn't helpful at all. My apologies, Ray!

    I should also point out that less than a day after Mr. Morgan made his unfortunate promise, two key team players and members of the Jelsoft team in the UK (both Kiers and Scott) suddenly resigned and walked out. Morgan hasn't said yet whether unexpected staff changes like these should be expected to speed up the promised end-of-year release up or slow it down. My guess is it will not speed things up.

    I honestly don't think the present situation is totally Jelsoft's fault at all. Nor is it Ray Morgan's fault either. In my judgement the user community is being unreasonable and imposing unrealistic expectations. Mr. Morgan clearly said Thursday they expect to have a demo soon. Demanding that he "define 'soon" wasn't helpful. In fact as these latest resignations show, backing Ray into a corner and forcing him to give us a release date actually proved detrimental! The fact is he lives in a world at least as dynamic and unpredictable as ours; but his house is made of glass because he doesn't control all the players or factors that affect delivery any more than you or I do.

    For God's sake, give the man and his hard-working team a break, friends! They're doing the best they can. What more can any of us reasonably ask?

    As I've said, they're fighting a brutal trench war. It does no good for us to scream questions, hurl demands and shout obscenities at the troops in the trench beneath our feet from this wobbly old fence we're all sitting on! What happens if they all suddenly panic and decide to leave and this fence collapses into that trench? Unless YOU can personally step straight into the shoes of a Kiers or a Scott and help this team make that promised year-end delivery, I'd say it's best to sit quietly, be patient and supportive, and send money.

    What more can I say except I personally and professionally hope Kiers and Scott change their minds over the weekend. They are valuable and important players and their team and customers need them now more than ever.

    Thanks for listening! I sincerely hope this helps.
    I agree we didn't help much with our rants. Somehow between the lines I read that vB4 is being further delayed.

    Leave a comment:


  • Paul M
    replied
    Originally posted by websissy View Post
    What more can I say except I personally and professionally hope Kiers and Scott change their minds over the weekend. They are valuable and important players and their team and customers need them now more than ever.
    Kier and Scott (& Mike) left months ago now

    Leave a comment:


  • intospain
    replied
    Thanks websissy - at least we know "roughly" when they plan to release V4 and I too got an email back after asking for a demo which would be up and running "soon" which will stop everyone from moaning on about this.

    I just want to see the demo and if all is okay then purchase it and stop having to come back here to see WTF is going on.

    Lets hope "soon" is a couple of days before 30th October 2009!

    Leave a comment:


  • Mark.B
    replied
    Originally posted by websissy View Post
    From what I've seen and heard so far, the words they're using are practically ALL fuzzy around the edges. That's to be expected at this stage. What it means is that anything is possible. Whether we are calling this one product, or two products, or three, the fact remains it was designed and built as three distinct and separate pieces. Forums came first. Four years later they released blogs. A year later they started building a CMS. It's not released yet. I count that as 3 products. You might not. But I do.

    WE might think of and talk about it as if it was "one product" and they may choose to talk to us as if it was "one product" because that serves their purpose now by letting them avoid saying which parts they're talking about when they promise deliveries and releases "by year end", but the fact remains they've undoubtedly got 3 design, development and testing teams working on the three parts of our "one product".

    That's the way overlapped engineering and development projects work, Mark. Team A designs and builds the frame and body. Team B designs and builds the engine and drive train. Team C designs and builds the interior. The team leaders meet once a week to work out any issues. All teams bring their working prototypes to the alpha test assembly line in September and we hammer out the kinks and issues there. Ready... Set... Go!

    But wise product and engineering managers always have "Plan B" in their back pockets and the backs of their minds. As in... "We can release the forums first, the Blogs second and the CMS third." Get the picture?

    Please realize, I'm not saying this is what they are doing or even what they will do, Mark. I'm not running this project. They are. I'm only saying if I was in their position with a project this complex and this highly visible, that's the way I'd approach the problem. And under high enough pressure, so did General Motors, and so did NASA and the Administration in Washington is doing it right NOW and YOU would too, Mark.

    When you think about it, it makes sense. Why worry about delivering fully-tested monthly billing programs or the annual statement reports on day 1? Heck, they won't NEED the billing programs until a full month after they start producing invoices. And they won't need the annual statement reports until the end of the first year. Kapeesh?
    Yes, I do get what you're saying. I'm just going off what the team themselves have said...that they no longer consider the blog to be a separate product as it is fully intergrated into the "suite". That, supposedly, is the reason it cannot be sold separately, and they can't have it both ways.

    Leave a comment:


  • PcosKat
    replied
    Originally posted by websissy View Post
    Unless YOU can personally step straight into the shoes of a Kiers or a Scott and help this team make that promised year-end delivery, I'd say it's best to sit quietly, be patient and supportive, and send money.
    I'd send money (x2) if they had a professional and reasonable 'money back guarantee' policy that states they will refund pre-sale funds if the prior to the release v4.

    I like vbulletin. I have no problem with the pricing (and wouldn't care if it were even more expensive), but I DO have a problem with what appears to be a poor policy on refunds/deadlines.

    Note, I'm not saying they HAVE to stick to that deadline (things happen) - I just don't want to have to PAY for them not meeting the deadline.

    Other than that... *shrugs*

    Leave a comment:


  • Bubble #5
    replied
    Thank you HMBeaty

    Leave a comment:


  • HMBeaty
    replied
    Originally posted by Bubble #5 View Post
    Link
    http://www.vbulletin.com/index.php?do=screenshots

    Leave a comment:


  • Bubble #5
    replied
    Originally posted by STORMS View Post
    Now that screen shots have been given to show an example of what to expect...
    Link

    Leave a comment:


  • websissy
    replied
    Originally posted by pahvi View Post
    Thanks "websissy" for at least some constructive postings on this forum today!
    I've done what I can. That's all anyone can do. I'm also praying Kiers and Scott will change their minds. We really NEED them.

    Leave a comment:


  • pahvi
    replied
    Originally posted by websissy View Post
    Dear IntoSpain and jadmperry,

    Actually you do have a release date and schedule. It was given by Vbulletin's General Manager, Ray Morgan, on Thursday afternoon who was under direct pressure from users just like you. Here is a link to that post: Projected Release Date.

    I should also point out that less than a day after Mr. Morgan made this promise, two key team players and members of the Jelsoft team in the UK (Kiers and Scott) suddenly resigned and walked out. Morgan hasn't said yet whether unexpected staff changes like these should be expected to speed up the promised end-of-year release up or slow it down. My guess is it will not speed things up.

    I honestly don't think the present situation is totally Jelsoft's fault at all. Nor is it Ray Morgan's fault either. In my judgement the user community is being unreasonable and imposing unrealistic expectations. Mr. Morgan clearly said Thursday they expect to have a demo soon. Demanding that he "define 'soon" wasn't helpful. In fact as these latest resignations show, backing Ray into a corner and forcing him to give us a release date actually proved detrimental! The fact is he lives in a world at least as dynamic and unpredictable as ours; but his house is made of glass because he doesn't control all the players or all the factors that affect delivery any more than you or I do.

    For God's sake, give the man and his hard-working team a break! They're doing the very best they can. What more can any of us reasonably ask?

    As I've said, they're fighting a brutal trench war. It does no good for us to scream questions, hurl demands and shout obscenities at the troops in the trench beneath our feet from this wobbly old fence we're all sitting on! What happens if they all suddenly panic and decide to leave and this fence collapses into that trench? Unless YOU can personally step straight into the shoes of a Kiers or a Scott and help this team make that promised year-end delivery, I'd say it's best to sit quietly, be patient and supportive, and send money.

    What more can I say except I personally and professionally hope both Kiers and Scott will change their minds over the weekend. They are valuable and important players and their team and customers need them now more than ever.

    Thanks for listening! I sincerely hope this helps.
    Thanks "websissy" for at least some constructive postings on this forum today!

    Leave a comment:


  • websissy
    replied
    Bottom Line: We can make things better... or WORSE!

    Originally posted by intospain View Post
    Well, this is not our fault is it? The team at VB have created this problem themselves and only have themselves to blame for all of this uproar about not seeing a demo, not giving us a release date and blatantly ignoring all requests that their customers have sent in terms of contact to find out more about the new product. Poor customer service and relations. ALL we want to see if a working demo and a rough release date, is it that hard to give us that information? Then the majority of us will then put our hands in our pocket and fork out of the new release but until then this is going to continue.

    I think everyone is in their own rights to ask for this information and "sit on the fence" until it is published.

    Stop us all moaning today VB - show us a demo and give us a rough release date, simple!
    Originally posted by jadmperry View Post
    I think you are right on most of this. I don't think that "all" have to do anything, people are going to respond according to their own views and reactions. But, I do think you are right that they are competent and will deliver. I am actually pretty happy with the discount they are offering. Like most who have posted in the forum, I would greatly appreciate a "rough estimate" of a delivery date.

    I remember last year getting all excited and waiting, checking back every day, for the release of vb 3.8. I also remember the vb team being adamant about not promising a release date. They seem to be keeping that policy in place for 4.x. This is a judgment call on their part, they apparently do not want to deal with the backlash of what happens if they miss the "projected" delivery date... (portion of original post omitted)

    Still, I am confident they will deliver a good product, so I will be buying before long. I wish that my templates would still work, but I am guessing that it won't be too difficult to get someone to update my forum. But, some folks will not share my views and they will either wait, or abandon the platform. This may result in some lost business on their part, but if they do deliver a great product, then I am sure they will be fine. I am hoping that is the case.

    I am cutting them some slack. I may have done things differently than they did, but then again, I don't know what resource constraints they are dealing with...so, I will be patient and wish them good luck on producing a great product.
    Dear IntoSpain and jadmperry,

    Actually you do have a release date and schedule. It was given by Vbulletin's General Manager, Ray Morgan, on Thursday afternoon who was under direct pressure from users just like you. Here is a link to that post: Projected Release Date. I think it was regrettable Mr. Morgan felt it necessary to announce such a schedule. But I'll be the first to admit my own (choose your words: less optimistic / more realistic) professional guesstimates here that same day concerning the likely delivery schedule (which later vanished) probably contributed to the pressure on Morgan to commit to a date. I regret the fact that my effort to help by explaining things ended up putting Morgan on a laser-heated hot seat. In hindsight THAT wasn't helpful at all. My apologies, Ray!

    I should also point out that less than a day after Mr. Morgan made his unfortunate promise, two key team players and members of the Jelsoft team in the UK (both Kiers and Scott) suddenly resigned and walked out. Morgan hasn't said yet whether unexpected staff changes like these should be expected to speed up the promised end-of-year release up or slow it down. My guess is it will not speed things up.

    I honestly don't think the present situation is totally Jelsoft's fault at all. Nor is it Ray Morgan's fault either. In my judgement the user community is being unreasonable and imposing unrealistic expectations. Mr. Morgan clearly said Thursday they expect to have a demo soon. Demanding that he "define 'soon" wasn't helpful. In fact as these latest resignations show, backing Ray into a corner and forcing him to give us a release date actually proved detrimental! The fact is he lives in a world at least as dynamic and unpredictable as ours; but his house is made of glass because he doesn't control all the players or factors that affect delivery any more than you or I do.

    For God's sake, give the man and his hard-working team a break, friends! They're doing the best they can. What more can any of us reasonably ask?

    As I've said, they're fighting a brutal trench war. It does no good for us to scream questions, hurl demands and shout obscenities at the troops in the trench beneath our feet from this wobbly old fence we're all sitting on! What happens if they all suddenly panic and decide to leave and this fence collapses into that trench? Unless YOU can personally step straight into the shoes of a Kiers or a Scott and help this team make that promised year-end delivery, I'd say it's best to sit quietly, be patient and supportive, and send money.

    What more can I say except I personally and professionally hope Kiers and Scott change their minds over the weekend. They are valuable and important players and their team and customers need them now more than ever.

    Thanks for listening! I sincerely hope this helps.
    Last edited by websissy; Sat 17 Oct '09, 8:20am.

    Leave a comment:


  • jadmperry
    replied
    Originally posted by websissy View Post
    KingPin,

    But we all have to cut them some much-needed slack and give them breathing space here. Right now they're fighting a totally exhausting trench war... and we're not making it easier on them by screaming questions from the fence row right behind their trenches.
    ...You'll be helping them *and* yourself. You need the product ASAP. They need your patience and financial support to help them finish the product ASAP.

    What part of ASAP don't you understand? Yes. There are NO guarantees. But this is as close to a sure thing as you're ever going to get.
    websissy,

    I think you are right on most of this. I don't think that "all" have to do anything, people are going to respond according to their own views and reactions. But, I do think you are right that they are competent and will deliver. I am actually pretty happy with the discount they are offering. Like most who have posted in the forum, I would greatly appreciate a "rough estimate" of a delivery date.

    I remember last year getting all excited and waiting, checking back every day, for the release of vb 3.8. I also remember the vb team being adamant about not promising a release date. They seem to be keeping that policy in place for 4.x. This is a judgment call on their part, they apparently do not want to deal with the backlash of what happens if they miss the "projected" delivery date. Okay, that is their choice; me, I would be happy with a estimated month of delivery, or a "goal" that they would like to release, and if they miss it, I would be disappointed, but I would understand. I know some would lose their minds, though, so I am speculating that this is what drives their opacity.

    Still, I am confident they will deliver a good product, so I will be buying before long. I wish that my templates would still work, but I am guessing that it won't be too difficult to get someone to update my forum. But, some folks will not share my views and they will either wait, or abandon the platform. This may result in some lost business on their part, but if they do deliver a great product, then I am sure they will be fine. I am hoping that is the case.

    I am cutting them some slack. I may have done things differently than they did, but then again, I don't know what resource constraints they are dealing with...so, I will be patient and wish them good luck on producing a great product.

    Leave a comment:


  • intospain
    replied
    Originally posted by websissy View Post
    But we all have to cut them some much-needed slack and give them breathing space here. Right now they're fighting a totally exhausting trench war... and we're not making it easier on them by screaming questions from the fence row right behind their trenches.
    Well, this is not our fault is it? The team at VB have created this problem themselves and only have themselves to blame for all of this uproar about not seeing a demo, not giving us a release date and blatantly ignoring all requests that their customers have sent in terms of contact to find out more about the new product. Poor customer service and relations. ALL we want to see if a working demo and a rough release date, is it that hard to give us that information? Then the majority of us will then put our hands in our pocket and fork out of the new release but until then this is going to continue.

    I think everyone is in their own rights to ask for this information and "sit on the fence" until it is published.

    Stop us all moaning today VB - show us a demo and give us a rough release date, simple!

    Leave a comment:


  • websissy
    replied
    Originally posted by KingPin6 View Post
    honestly I hope very much you are right, but the fact is VB team isnt telling us jack... I mean they want us to pay for software thats in alpha.....thats guaranteed to break most of the mods and all skins.... and it doesnt help that my license expired just a little over 10 days ago so I have to pay for a new license now.....so im just sitting on the fence waiting and watching for the moment....
    KingPin,

    Trust me. I've been doing this a l-o-n-g time. I know a truly competent software development and management team when I see it. These guys are real pros who KNOW what they're doing. And they are very damned good at what they do. They are absolutely going to deliver this WHOLE product and it will work very well. They may experience a few setbacks or some unexpected delays along the way. That's to be expected. But they will deliver and it definitely will work. There's no doubt in my mind about that.

    But we all have to cut them some much-needed slack and give them breathing space here. Right now they're fighting a totally exhausting trench war... and we're not making it easier on them by screaming questions from the fence row right behind their trenches.

    Stop worrying about things you can't control and handle the things you can control instead. Get off that fence you're sitting on and DO something. Figure out where to dig up the cash you need to upgrade. Then pony up to the bar next week and buy that upgrade while they're still offering you a good deal at a great price. You'll be helping them *and* yourself. You need the product ASAP. They need your patience and financial support to help them finish the product ASAP.

    What part of ASAP don't you understand? Yes. There are NO guarantees. But this is as close to a sure thing as you're ever going to get.

    That's my best professional assessment and advice. Nobody paid me a dime for it. But I firmly believe it's accurate. What more can I say?
    Last edited by websissy; Fri 16 Oct '09, 7:44pm.

    Leave a comment:

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