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  • Satisfaction can't be guaranteed

    After reading customers' messages posted here after the pre-sale announcement, I came to the conclusion that no matter how Jelsoft handles licensing, people will be complaining.

    To Jelsoft: Please offer vB4 Forum & Suite free of charge, make all licenses active till the next vB5 release with free support for the whole period. After doing all these, tell your development team they won't get paid for their hard work, tell the real estate and utilities companies you won't pay your bills. And then file for the bankrupcy.

    This way all your customers will achieve the final satisfaction and say: "Wait a minute! Jelsoft's licensing wasn't bad after all. Pity they went out of business. Oh well, that's life."

    ***
    People tend to forget that there are costs associated with the major product redesign. R &D is never cheap.

  • #2
    vbulletin is surely worth more than $285.

    Development costs money and should be valued.
    I buy 420 forums

    Comment


    • #3
      The people who disagree always make the most noise. The people who agree seldom make much noise.

      I support IB's new licensing and pricing. I think the discount is fair. I'm buying Publisher Suite and I look forward to the features it includes.

      Comment


      • #4
        I don't really think the sarcasm is helpful.

        I -- and I think most people here, among us many who have been customers for years and have already quite willingly paid hundreds to vB in willing support of their work and product -- are not arguing about having to pay. What is (I think quite rightly) being protested is vB's insistence, with this new 'pre-release sale', that we either commit substantial money now to a product we cannot see, test, examine, or even get concrete details of in terms of features, usability, release, etc.; or wait until these things are available, but then have to pay twice the cost.

        This is fundamentally bad business, and it is particularly unfair to long-standing customers.

        I for one will be first in line to pay, once I've been able to see the product to ensure it will meet my needs and be worth the money I'm paying. But the 'just trust us' approach is the very definition of bad business, and traditionally at the heart of radical customer dissatisfaction on the one side, and fraud on the other.

        Comment


        • #5
          I've never criticized vBulletin until now. I've been very happy with the software and felt it was an excellent value.

          Now I feel like the rug has been pulled out from under my feet. I don't appreciate the real cost of running the software tripling overnight. I don't appreciate the entire licensing scheme that I invested in being changed out of the blue. I don't appreciate being sent a "shotgun style" upgrade offer that expires in two weeks when the new product isn't even available to see let alone kick the tires. This is especially true since the majority of the REAL (and trusted) vBulletin development team left the company. I don't appreciate paying for a half baked Blog with free upgrades for life that now has been incorporated into a much more expensive CMS system that I may or may not want.

          $300 a year is quite a lot of money for software when there are many excellent and free low cost alternatives out there. Jelsoft better do a reality check real quick.

          Comment


          • #6
            Even IPB has seen the gaff made by Jelsoft and are ready to offer vb customers an alternative with lowered software costs and/or conversion cost.

            Way to go Jelsoft: How to shoot yourself in the foot in one easy lesson.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Snowman872 View Post
              I've never criticized vBulletin until now. I've been very happy with the software and felt it was an excellent value.

              Now I feel like the rug has been pulled out from under my feet. I don't appreciate the real cost of running the software tripling overnight. I don't appreciate the entire licensing scheme that I invested in being changed out of the blue. I don't appreciate being sent a "shotgun style" upgrade offer that expires in two weeks when the new product isn't even available to see let alone kick the tires. This is especially true since the majority of the REAL (and trusted) vBulletin development team left the company. I don't appreciate paying for a half baked Blog with free upgrades for life that now has been incorporated into a much more expensive CMS system that I may or may not want.

              $300 a year is quite a lot of money for software when there are many excellent and free low cost alternatives out there. Jelsoft better do a reality check real quick.
              Your assumptions are incorrect.

              Your cost over time has not tripled in fact over time, vBulletin will cost the same if not less than you are paying now.

              vBulletin 3.0 Owned License for 2 years is $300 ($180 + 60 + 60)
              vBulletin 4.0 Owned License for 2 years is $195

              vBulletin Owned License + Blog and CMS over two years is $420 ($180 + (60*4))
              vBulletin Suite is $235.00 during the sale and $285 afterwards.

              Existing customers would pay an average of $120 over 2 years to renew existing licenses. If they upgrade to the Suite during the sale, they would pay $130.00 over the same period.

              Now if you doubt there will be at least 2 years between 4.0 and 5.0, think about this. We plan to spend 6 months for developing each point release plus testing. Currently at least 2 point releases for vBulletin 4 are planned. That is at least a year of development and 3-6 months of testings and deployment. If only two point released are done for 5.0, then you're looking at 15 months before we start 5.0. Add on 6 months of development and 3 months of testing and you're at more than 2 years. Especially since people with customized sites probably won't upgrade until 5.0.1 which will be several weeks behind the initial release.
              Translations provided by Google.

              Wayne Luke
              The Rabid Badger - a vBulletin Cloud demonstration site.
              vBulletin 5 API - Full / Mobile
              Vote for your favorite feature requests and the bugs you want to see fixed.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Wayne Luke View Post
                Your assumptions are incorrect.

                Your cost over time has not tripled in fact over time, vBulletin will cost the same if not less than you are paying now.

                vBulletin 3.0 Owned License for 2 years is $300 ($180 + 60 + 60)
                vBulletin 4.0 Owned License for 2 years is $195

                vBulletin Owned License + Blog and CMS over two years is $420 ($180 + (60*4))
                vBulletin Suite is $235.00 during the sale and $285 afterwards.

                Existing customers would pay an average of $120 over 2 years to renew existing licenses. If they upgrade to the Suite during the sale, they would pay $130.00 over the same period.

                Now if you doubt there will be at least 2 years between 4.0 and 5.0, think about this. We plan to spend 6 months for developing each point release plus testing. Currently at least 2 point releases for vBulletin 4 are planned. That is at least a year of development and 3-6 months of testings and deployment. If only two point released are done for 5.0, then you're looking at 15 months before we start 5.0. Add on 6 months of development and 3 months of testing and you're at more than 2 years. Especially since people with customized sites probably won't upgrade until 5.0.1 which will be several weeks behind the initial release.
                Have to call you on this; you logic is sound but your maths isn't.

                vBulletin 3.0 Owned License for 2 years is $240 ($180 + 60 + 60) You'd only have to upgrade once. As you get a year free with the purchase.
                vBulletin Owned License + Blog and CMS over two years is $360 ($180 + (60*4)) same.

                Still cheaper considering buying from scratch.

                Existing customers would pay an average of $100 over 2 years to renew existing licenses. ($40+$60/2)*2 $50 is the average to renew taking the discount into account. so 2 years would be $100. This might skew upwards or downwards based on trends of renewals but without the data its impossible to tell.
                Some of my Mods:
                Advanced IP Ban Manager (vb3.6+ version) - Fine grained control over blocking trouble makers.
                Advanced IP Ban Manager (vb4 version) - Fine grained control over blocking trouble makers.
                Use Original thread for Comments - Uses the original thread for comments for any forum threads promoted to CMS articles.
                Custom Friendly Urls - Allows customisation of forum urls from the admin CP.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Wayne Luke View Post
                  Now if you doubt there will be at least 2 years between 4.0 and 5.0, think about this. We plan to spend 6 months for developing each point release plus testing. Currently at least 2 point releases for vBulletin 4 are planned. That is at least a year of development and 3-6 months of testings and deployment. If only two point released are done for 5.0, then you're looking at 15 months before we start 5.0. Add on 6 months of development and 3 months of testing and you're at more than 2 years. Especially since people with customized sites probably won't upgrade until 5.0.1 which will be several weeks behind the initial release.
                  This does put some of my fears to rest, thank you Wayne

                  I really hope there will also be more point releases, not purely because I want my money's worth, but also because I'd hate for vB to become "version number bloat" - software that claims to be v12 but have features that aren't worthy of that many major releases.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    So.... maybe this needs to be changed a bit if generation means major version change:

                    How many months are expected to separate two different generations?

                    We want to take advantage of the rapid feedback cycle that comes with more frequent releases, so my best projection today is that we will try to release roughly every six months, though we will adjust this as it makes sense to do so.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      What surprises me is that customers let their vB licenses lapse knowing well there is a major upgrade coming up, there is a new company ownership, industry practices that are in place, etc. At the very least, they should check the vBulletin forum for announcements once a month or so.

                      I don't think Jelsoft did a good job with the way licensing changes were presented and demos not being available, but the firestorm of relentless *****ing on customers' part is way overboard.
                      Last edited by kyrgyz; Wed 14th Oct '09, 7:28am.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by The Notorious View Post
                        So.... maybe this needs to be changed a bit if generation means major version change:

                        3.5, 3.6, 3.7 and 3.8 are all considered new generations of vBulletin. Currently they are 12-18 months apart.
                        Translations provided by Google.

                        Wayne Luke
                        The Rabid Badger - a vBulletin Cloud demonstration site.
                        vBulletin 5 API - Full / Mobile
                        Vote for your favorite feature requests and the bugs you want to see fixed.

                        Comment

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