vBulletin vs. IPB

[ChrisLM2001]

Occam's Razor isn't a model the web is operating now on, and that disconnect is why there's miscommunication, not only in discussions like this, but how one side does this/the other side does that, as the whole web concept is compartmentalized.

The future is the designer will be the coder, and the coder will be the designer, because grandma will be doing both. The vB team of 10 to 20 years from now, won't be putting style as a consideration at the very end of the project, because style would be the heart of it (which the game industry is showing the programming world today).

It's folks today challenging the gatekeepers over a style system that's convulted, 10 years from now grandma won't accept the gatekeepers getting in her way (as software would've evolved where she can accomplish tasks herself, as the framework isn't as protected, linear or time consuming).

Doesn't make sense at first, but it does start very simply, with site design.

[Dilly]

http://www.webdesignfromscratch.com/...tyle-guide.cfm

Point at whatever pages you like. It's a hyped up gimmick.

[ManagerJosh]

All those challenge limitations were put in by the vB team to justify keeping legacy layouts. You won't see those limitations thrown at web designers for putting up larger sites than anything vBulletin can host.

It's not a challenge by the vB team. It's a challenge from me. I've been fiddling with CSS like crazy these last few months and I understand that IE6 does not play nice with a CSS layout.

[Chousho]

http://www.webdesignfromscratch.com/...tyle-guide.cfm



Concept isn't new, Commercial Artists learned this l-o-n-g time ago. But for the web it's revolutionary. It's not all about 10101010 and pixels, it's things like organic layout APIs...

http://www.yworks.com/products/yfile..._layouter.html

And organic styles...

http://particletree.com/features/an-...ut-techniques/



"Web 2.0" as it's coined, is the web growing out of it's crib, and taking those first steps in a new world with it's new challenges. The web as we know it, will have to crawl, make those first steps, and eventually run, like life itself, to survive.

Hmm, thanks for the links. I found some very interesting stuff to peruse. I've been intrigued by the simplicity design, and have been thinking of implementing this, myself.

I would say that VB could use a complete makeover, however it's been stated that we'll be seeing that in VB4. I think it was also mentioned that the current family (VB3) would keep the same traditional layout and admincp. This is to keep things from becoming over-complicated to the users, however I'm still, very much, waiting for the new design.

In the meanwhile, I've gotten quite a bit of use from the links and info you provided. Thanks!

[ChrisLM2001]

LOL.

http://www.webdesignfromscratch.com/...tyle-guide.cfm

Concentrate particularly on areas of the layout that are less relevant to the purpose of a page, because visual activity in these areas will distract attention from the key content and navigation.
Use visual detail - whether lines, words, shapes, colour - to communicate the relevant information, not just to decorate.

Concept isn't new, Commercial Artists learned this l-o-n-g time ago. But for the web it's revolutionary. It's not all about 10101010 and pixels, it's things like organic layout APIs...

http://www.yworks.com/products/yfile..._layouter.html

And organic styles...

http://particletree.com/features/an-...ut-techniques/

In the last few years there’s been a sort of visual renaissance in the CSS design community to break the notion that the web will only be constructed with boxes and squares upon squares. This defiance has lead to the rapid adoption of any visual trickery that can create additional depth and curves to a design: rounded boxes, angled/rotated banners, gradient backgrounds, drop shadows, etc. These visual tricks have all been put on the list of things to come with the CSS3 specs. It is this organic interaction between W3C and users /developers that I find most exciting about this community. Because our environment is always evolving, working with and pushing CSS layouts today helps make things much more exciting and easier to implement in the future.

"Web 2.0" as it's coined, is the web growing out of it's crib, and taking those first steps in a new world with it's new challenges. The web as we know it, will have to crawl, make those first steps, and eventually run, like life itself, to survive.

[MRGTB]

It does support standards, its CSS and XHTML 1.0 Trans. Last I checked, both were valid standards.

Sorry not true, click the link!
http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=ht...Inline&group=0

And I agree with Chris, in the new version of vBulletin being worked on now. It is time to move up to Web 2 standards to keep with the pace and times. phpBB have done it - and its a free board which validates to WC3 Strict.

[Dilly]

Web 2.0, it's time to grow up

LOL.

[ChrisLM2001]

It does support standards, its CSS and XHTML 1.0 Trans. Last I checked, both were valid standards.

If you prefer coding in the Stone Age, let alone learn b-a-d coding practices.

Then tell us, how much of the stylesheet can actually be used to style, vBulletin. With all those inline style tags, and hardcode -- you can forget revamping the styles with the stylesheet alone.

That's the whole purpose for using it. Not use it as an excuse to say, "We're a XHTML/CSS product", but only by showing the bare mininum needed to pass the least standards to do so.

If vBulletin took the same attitude for php and MySql, imagine where it would be today -- in the dustbin of forgotten legacy products.

Web 2.0, it's time to grow up.

[Zachery]

It does support standards, its CSS and XHTML 1.0 Trans. Last I checked, both were valid standards.

[ChrisLM2001]

Try creating a style that's backward compatible with legacy browsers like IE6 without hacks. Come back then and prove your point.

All those challenge limitations were put in by the vB team to justify keeping legacy layouts. You won't see those limitations thrown at web designers for putting up larger sites than anything vBulletin can host.

vBulletin simply has never put in the resources to redo their template system. They know it's an ungodly mess and hope by ignoring it (or put up conditions that they know won't work, since CSS/stylesheets didn't exist in NS4 time), it would fade away.

Three years later, folks still ask: when will vBulletin meet web standards? Excuses of supporting legacy browsers that maybe 1 in 10000 members will use for 99% of the forums, are never a justification to keep the template system looking like this...

<tr valign="top">
 <td class="alt2" width="175" style="border: $stylevar[cellspacing]px solid $stylevar[tborder_bgcolor]; border-top: 0px; border-bottom: 0px">

Using the table cellspacing variable to use on borders, that if changed globally, the td border will be scaled accordingly. Style inline tags have no purpose, it prevents the use of the stylesheet, despite vBulletin using one (and by over use of style tags, shows by example that it's but an afterthought). And worse, too many of those styles are locked into hardcode, making using the stylesheet worthless if you change the tag names accordingly.

Fancy embedded HTML 4.01 Transitional, and an utter blackeye on an otherwise fine product.

[Razasharp]

I've yet to see a large percentage of multi-million / Billion dollar companies using vBulletin.

Who cares what they use?

I'm far more interested in seeing which software the biggest forums on the web use. (In case you didn't know, for every one that uses invision, there's around 8 or more that use vB - that's a MASSIVE majority. Not sure of the exact figure but I couldn't be bothered to count them all on that page!)

This tells me something. It tells me that vB is doing something very right when it comes to usability.

The proof is in the pudding - more users out there prefer to use vB forums than any other.

Yes I accept that this last year or two things may be changing, and that vB really does need to get back up there when it comes to features and add-ons, not just to catch up, but to innovate again.... I really wish they would take on a task force from the community to help in this area - there are a lot of professionals who use vB, who could help make it not just great, but totally out of this world great.

[ManagerJosh]

Goes both ways. Been called by a vB guy here of being "prissy"; been pooh-poohed by the IPB guy over the AJAX bellyho.

As much as I ride the vB devs over XHTML/CSS, I don't complain about the php coding itself. It runs; it looks professional; secure as it can be; and commented well (enough to find where the hell a table begins and ends). If they put 1/2 of the effort they do in php and mysql in the template side, I'd FINALLY shut up.

No forumware is perfect. None can be totally secure, nor can none satisfy everyone (half the features in vBulletin I'd prefer to rip out as it's not needed, for example). What "wins" is based on some concensus vote, which in the end may not satisfy anyone.

I'd stick with vB because I'm used to it. Been gone for about 2 years blogging, but came back because sis needs a forum for her workgroup. I can remember the naming conventions and what's what, despite not touching a template in all of that time (I would've had a heart attack if the templates were fixed to standards by now!). Could've went with any forumware since, but the chief factor I'm not switching is none have the feel of vBulletin. I look at the IPB style and I think "amateur" (sorry, Matt, but the default design is ugly), and too often than not, those who run IPB use that very style. MyBB would probably be my alternative, but like I said above, it still wouldn't have that vB feel nor feel like "home".

If you started with IPB it's the best since sliced bread, same can be said of vBulletin. Pick what's comfortable to you, for that -- in the end -- is what really matters.

Try creating a style that's backward compatible with legacy browsers like IE6 without hacks. Come back then and prove your point.

[whitetigergrowl]

Goes both ways. Been called by a vB guy here of being "prissy"; been pooh-poohed by the IPB guy over the AJAX bellyho.

As much as I ride the vB devs over XHTML/CSS, I don't complain about the php coding itself. It runs; it looks professional; secure as it can be; and commented well (enough to find where the hell a table begins and ends). If they put 1/2 of the effort they do in php and mysql in the template side, I'd FINALLY shut up.

No forumware is perfect. None can be totally secure, nor can none satisfy everyone (half the features in vBulletin I'd prefer to rip out as it's not needed, for example). What "wins" is based on some concensus vote, which in the end may not satisfy anyone.

I'd stick with vB because I'm used to it. Been gone for about 2 years blogging, but came back because sis needs a forum for her workgroup. I can remember the naming conventions and what's what, despite not touching a template in all of that time (I would've had a heart attack if the templates were fixed to standards by now!). Could've went with any forumware since, but the chief factor I'm not switching is none have the feel of vBulletin. I look at the IPB style and I think "amateur" (sorry, Matt, but the default design is ugly), and too often than not, those who run IPB use that very style. MyBB would probably be my alternative, but like I said above, it still wouldn't have that vB feel nor feel like "home".

If you started with IPB it's the best since sliced bread, same can be said of vBulletin. Pick what's comfortable to you, for that -- in the end -- is what really matters.

/agreed.

[ChrisLM2001]

Professional attitude was mentioned because I've witnessed several times where, frankly, those chosen to represent IPB have come across as being jerks.

Goes both ways. Been called by a vB guy here of being "prissy"; been pooh-poohed by the IPB guy over the AJAX bellyho.

As much as I ride the vB devs over XHTML/CSS, I don't complain about the php coding itself. It runs; it looks professional; secure as it can be; and commented well (enough to find where the hell a table begins and ends). If they put 1/2 of the effort they do in php and mysql in the template side, I'd FINALLY shut up.

No forumware is perfect. None can be totally secure, nor can none satisfy everyone (half the features in vBulletin I'd prefer to rip out as it's not needed, for example). What "wins" is based on some concensus vote, which in the end may not satisfy anyone.

I'd stick with vB because I'm used to it. Been gone for about 2 years blogging, but came back because sis needs a forum for her workgroup. I can remember the naming conventions and what's what, despite not touching a template in all of that time (I would've had a heart attack if the templates were fixed to standards by now!). Could've went with any forumware since, but the chief factor I'm not switching is none have the feel of vBulletin. I look at the IPB style and I think "amateur" (sorry, Matt, but the default design is ugly), and too often than not, those who run IPB use that very style. MyBB would probably be my alternative, but like I said above, it still wouldn't have that vB feel nor feel like "home".

If you started with IPB it's the best since sliced bread, same can be said of vBulletin. Pick what's comfortable to you, for that -- in the end -- is what really matters.

[Grover]

I expect it to have the opposite effect.

Hahaha.