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  • #31
    Originally posted by ChrisLM2001
    In this forumware market, it does because to maintain board populations and keep members interested, admins need the latest and greatest features. Many won't upgrade for eye candy, but they'll upgrade if the features improve their work -- be it faster searching, to quicker page loads.

    You're a clever one, WTG. You're not a vB fanboi, but you're not a outright "down with vB" script kiddie, either. Folks do feel you're up to no good, since what you defend and try to be "honest" about comes off key -- like D7minor.
    See, that argument is flawed. You can have the best forum software in the world. But it all depends on your needs for what you are doing (for both admin and members), the demographic you are aiming for, and your overall knowledge of being a webmaster. If your rules are too strict, that can turn people away. If they are too loose, you could run into all kinds of headaches. Its not the type of board that really matters, it's how you run it. For EXAMPLE You could have VB 3.5 and be around for 2 years. I could use VB 2.5 and just start out. And in less than a years time I double the # of members that you have (and posts), even though we were using the same forum software (just different versions), and are aiming towards the same demographic. In fact, my site did exactly that this last spring. In less than one years time my site had 3,500+ members. Making it the second largest forum of its kind for its demographic, and having at that time more than half the members of the largest forum. Which BTW IS on big-boards.com if you must know, for those that like pissing contests. Until the webhost furbar'd it all. But hey, I re-opened my site in July and its about half way back there already...so its all good. But thats another story. The other site has been around for years and IS very active. And had the webhost not fubar'd everything, no doubt...my forum and the #1 forum would be nipping at each others heels right now.

    Even if it improves your work, your work is only part of the issue. Too many people figure that just because its THEIR BOARD, that they rule the land. Well, yeah, thats true, if you don't mind having fewer members and activity than what would be possible. Having a Napoleanistic approach to your board and site will only set you up for failure. Unless of course thats what you want. But hey, thats your decision. Some people go all gung ho on the rules. I don't treat my members as minions that are there to do my bidding. I treat them as humans. I don't go all gung-ho if they goof up. I might give a nice warning, but thats only fair. The rules I have now, were the same when I had 3,500 members. And ya know what, I have never run into any major problems.

    It's not the latest and greatest features people want. If they have them great, some members may use them. And you may think their cool to have for you, but they may care less. Look at somethingawful.com still using 2.x forum software. You don't see them or their members whining to upgrade to 3.5 and its plug-in system or ajax. They just want to be able to post. They could care less about that stuff. And its very possible that extra stuff could more of a strain on their servers and turn people off too. Thus keeping it vanilla is the best way to go for them. And btw, the average joe can't usually tell the difference with search speeds or quicker page loads. Want quicker page loads? Cut back on the extra crap thats not needed thats clowing the server, or move to a better server, etc.. So having the latest and greatest features can both help or hurt your board. And if you are in constant contact with your members and get a feel for what they want/don't want, then you may realize that what you think is of great benefit, they could think of as hinderance. Hey it may be YOUR BOARD....but remember, they joined that board for a reason. And having an egotistical or Napoleanistic attitude towards them may scare them away and kill board activity.

    And hey, if some people keep wanting to live in fantasyland and drawing up conspiracy theories about me, hey, thats fine. Thats their problem, not mine.
    Last edited by whitetigergrowl; Thu 10 Nov '05, 8:48pm.

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    • #32
      What type of board really matters. It's the foundation of what to build dreams upon.

      It's like a building a home. Building it on land that's known to have sinkholes or on a hilly crag, can endanger it's very existance.

      vBulletin is like building a home on bedrock with a solid concrete slab foundation. It also has a good security system to protect it from intruders; nice lights to give it a warm atmosphere; good solid frame to keep the home upright in a storm; and well insulated from too much heat and cold.

      Sure you can get a mobile home and set it up on a bedrock area, but it's not going to remain viable for long -- strong winds, extreme weather and a thief in the night can cause damage or destroy it all together.

      So, yes your forumware does matter. And wise admins pick the best one for their communities (to offer their members the features to keep them pleased, and keep them at their forums). The SEO and forum promotion are viables outside vBulletin's control, but the admin is going to get a solid foundation to build his future dream site with vBulletin.

      Can't claim the same of other forumwares (and I can attest to that fact with phpBB <-- that community is one of the most stuck up of them all. Have a service question? Be ready to don some Nomex and Kevlar because of some overly sensitive egos!).

      Chris
      "Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to Authority
      is not using his intelligence, he is just using his memory."
      ~~~
      Leonardo da Vinci

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by ChrisLM2001
        What type of board really matters. It's the foundation of what to build dreams upon.

        It's like a building a home. Building it on land that's known to have sinkholes or on a hilly crag, can endanger it's very existance.

        vBulletin is like building a home on bedrock with a solid concrete slab foundation. It also has a good security system to protect it from intruders; nice lights to give it a warm atmosphere; good solid frame to keep the home upright in a storm; and well insulated from too much heat and cold.

        Sure you can get a mobile home and set it up on a bedrock area, but it's not going to remain viable for long -- strong winds, extreme weather and a thief in the night can cause damage or destroy it all together.

        So, yes your forumware does matter. And wise admins pick the best one for their communities (to offer their members the features to keep them pleased, and keep them at their forums). The SEO and forum promotion are viables outside vBulletin's control, but the admin is going to get a solid foundation to build his future dream site with vBulletin.

        Can't claim the same of other forumwares (and I can attest to that fact with phpBB <-- that community is one of the most stuck up of them all. Have a service question? Be ready to don some Nomex and Kevlar because of some overly sensitive egos!).

        Chris
        If thats the case, why does Gaia Online use the free forum software PHPBB, AND have the most forum activity/members (according to big-boards.com)? Someone can make the excuse its been hacked so much that its not PHPBB anymore. But thats simply not true. The core components no doubt are still PHPBB. Sure someone can point down and say that at #7 is a VB board or whatever....but the largest forum is using a free software and its obviously running fine. Hey, I don't care for PHPBB anymore than anyone else. But its a fact. I'm curious as to why Gaiaonline decided to go with PHPBB rather than Vbulletin seeing as how VB was out when PHPBB was out. Was it cost? Was it features? What was it?

        Also, check out the last post:

        http://www.procata.com/blog/archives...d-perforamnce/

        Comment


        • #34
          Circular logic, WTG.

          We keep saying Gaia is but a shell of phpBB (it's so modded that if anything is left of phpBB in it, it's a GHOST!!), and you keep harping it's phpBB.

          How do you know what Gaia's core componets are? Have you talked to it's owners? If not, why promote your idea as a fact? Folks need the hard data, not "I believe...".

          Gaia probably (<-- notice a variable instead of an absolute?) started out on phpBB and to upgrade to any other forumware in the early days would've been too much (look at WHT, it didn't upgrade from the 2.x.x series but a few months ago. But WHT doesn't have the millions of posts and members Gaia has, either). Since they put so much time and effort in modding what they have, it's no doubt they just said, "well if we're making a new forum as it is, we're just better off continuing it as is; as to convert this db and userbase over to vB would defy the laws of computing!!"

          Gaia is very unique, but it's not the standard production board most of the web uses. Mom and pops, fan sites, interest sites they need a rock solid forumware so they can do their business -- not spend it plugging security holes [which phpBB is known for].

          And from that link and the Gaia developer's post, it'll answer your questions.

          Chris
          "Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to Authority
          is not using his intelligence, he is just using his memory."
          ~~~
          Leonardo da Vinci

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by whitetigergrowl
            Was it cost? Was it features? What was it?
            Maybe he's just more familiar with the database structure since it has been modded to hell? With the same logic, I'm wondering why vB is so popular according to big-boards.com stats, with more than 5 times the number of large boards compare to the next competitor? Was it cost, features, what was it?

            BTW, the number of daily posts on your site, claimed by you, is highly exaggerated. I've been watching it and the average is 1/2 of what you claimed. It has nothing to do with this conversation, but I just want to throw that in, "Omega Powered!"
            Last edited by Vtec44; Fri 11 Nov '05, 7:41am.
            So Cal Sportbike forum - So Cal Moto - Kawasaki Ninja 250R Forum - Custom vinyl decals - Southern California camping forum

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Vtec44
              Maybe he's just more familiar with the database structure since it has been modded to hell? With the same logic, I'm wondering why vB is so popular according to big-boards.com stats, with more than 5 times the number of large boards compare to the next competitor? Was it cost, features, what was it?

              BTW, the number of daily posts on your site, claimed by you, is highly exaggerated. I've been watching it and the average is 1/2 of what you claimed. It has nothing to do with this conversation, but I just want to throw that in, "Omega Powered!"

              And no I'm not lying. I average 500-1000 or so posts a day. And as you can tell...sometimes about 1,500 or so too on occassion. Here are my forums posting stats. Like any site those stats do flux based on many variables. Nice try though:



              How do you know what Gaia's core componets are? Have you talked to it's owners? If not, why promote your idea as a fact? Folks need the hard data, not "I believe...".
              And they also don't want to hear, "Gaia probably....", because thats not fact either, and nothing but opinion. Making much of what you said almost useless. Well the board itself wasn't a custom board. Everyone knows that. It was PHPBB. So unless they went through and re-wrote ALL of the code, it's still PHPBB at the core. Common Sense. That would be like taking a VB board and hacking and modifying it to death and saying its not a VB board anymore.

              VB was out at the time they built Gaia Online and they decided to go with PHPBB. If I hack away at VB and make it so unique, so different than other VB boards out there...like what they have done with PHPBB, does that still make it VB? Yes. It doesn't matter what it looks like. (Hell they still use the PHPBB icons.) If there is still so much as a little bit of PHPBB coding in that board (Which there is), it's still PHPBB. Hacked to death or not. All they have done is optimized it and hacked it to death to suit their needs. But at its core it's still PHPBB. Everyone knows this. Just like if I hacked and modified VB to such death that it didn't look like a VB board.....fact is...it's still VB as long as some of it still exists in the database or coding. It may not look like a standard board, but that doesn't make that board any less than what it was.

              Like I said, when they created Gaia Online, PHPBB and Vbulletin were both available. I'm really curious as to why they went with the free software known to have security holes, versus VB. Remember when he got the forum software, it was the standard PHPBB forum. VB was available at that time as well. It wasn't until after they got the software that they started modding it. So saying, "Maybe he's just more familiar with the database structure since it has been modded to hell?", makes zero sense. Since at that time he could have chosen VB as well, and he was just starting off with the standard PHPBB coding.
              Last edited by whitetigergrowl; Fri 11 Nov '05, 8:45am.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by whitetigergrowl
                It was PHPBB.
                WAS is the keyword! Oh I didn't say you lied, just say that it has been greatly exagerated
                So Cal Sportbike forum - So Cal Moto - Kawasaki Ninja 250R Forum - Custom vinyl decals - Southern California camping forum

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by whitetigergrowl
                  Like I said, when they created Gaia Online, PHPBB and Vbulletin were both available. I'm really curious as to why they went with the free software known to have security holes, versus VB.
                  Because if you knew the history of web hosting/infrastructure of the time you'd know why. Just having your own site (let alone a server) in 2000 was a feat in cash and knowledge. You'll find anyone who has bought vB at that time either were in the industry or had $$$ to afford it (vB is cheap by comparison). It wasn't to around 2003 that the prices began to fall. It wasn't until 2004 (and servers with SATA drives and P4s became available) that the $5/mon hosts came around.

                  At the time vB was just beginning and the choices were with new kids on the block or the very expensive UBB. Most try out the freeware first, then convert once their communities grow. Gaia probably grew at a pace that they didn't realize, and it became just too much of a hassle to even WANT to convert.

                  Double checked for facts, and yes, Gaia grew at an exceptional rate...

                  From Derek Liu (Gaia's administrator)....

                  http://www.big-boards.com/int.php?n=60b

                  Gaia's growth rate was nothing we anticipated. We were expecting two or three times the popularity of other forums which I've hosted in the past, but the figures prooved us wrong just a month after the site opened. We've never felt this happy to be proven wrong.
                  In one month's time they were swamped.

                  That should answer your questions.

                  Chris
                  "Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to Authority
                  is not using his intelligence, he is just using his memory."
                  ~~~
                  Leonardo da Vinci

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    With all due respect to each of you, I think you should take this outside of this thread. This is not the place for debate- Answer his question with an opinion or fact and move on. If you wish to go back and forth, do it else where and not in the Pre-Sales Question area. It is an interesting read, but it does not Help this member.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Gamedev asked this...

                      I wanted to see what members of this community thought were the big differences over IPB that VBullien has. Is VB any better, and if you think so, what features make it better?
                      And he's getting it answered right here.

                      So far what's covered is the essentials from vB's plugin mod system and AJAX, to why the hype isn't right (like touting gaiaonline as being a phpBB board), in an honest manner (not hype).

                      Now if you don't prefer reading about the differences (as you also have a IPB license and don't seem to like this comparison thread), I suggest that you don't read it. It's for the public record, and the finer points are being addressed, as the thread creator asked for and for the public's benefit.

                      Chris
                      "Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to Authority
                      is not using his intelligence, he is just using his memory."
                      ~~~
                      Leonardo da Vinci

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by ChrisLM2001
                        to why the hype isn't right (like touting gaiaonline as being a phpBB board)

                        Chris
                        Its stated as a PHPBB board at big-boards.com. As well, it still uses the PHPBB icons, etc. Simply saying its not a PHPBB board just because its been hacked or modified to death, would be like saying another sites board which started off with VB then was hacked or modified to death isn't VB anymore. We all know people would jump on and say "Its still VB at the core" or "It's still VB.". Because the fact is, it didn't start out as a customized board with all new code. And if you couldn't resell it as your own creation because elements of the original board are still in tact...even by the smallest detail....it still has to be considered the board it was originally. That would be like me modifying Vbulletin to death, then saying its not Vbulletin anymore, technically because its been modified or hacked to death. If I couldn't sell the work as a new software, then it still has to be considered VB or VB at its core just because VB (or some of its) coding or the VB database is still in place. Even by the smallest detail. Specific laws also apply to this sort of situation, especially in the software world.

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                        • #42
                          If it's a shell, WTG, it's has no more "soul", it's but a ghost of it's former self.

                          That said, I think the basics are covered. vB is still the best forumware to get.

                          Chris
                          "Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to Authority
                          is not using his intelligence, he is just using his memory."
                          ~~~
                          Leonardo da Vinci

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            There's no need to modify vB to death because it comes with all the essentials, and then some. I have yet to see one that has been modified to death (even on large boards). You only need to do minor modifications to suit your site's personality, most of the time they're only template mods, in which Jelsoft will still provide support. phpBB itself lacks a lot of things, ie the ability to attach files to a post, quick reply, "real" word sensor, etc. On top of that, the template structure is not as user friendly compare to vB so most, if not all, modifications are in the php files themselves. So yes, if you modify the php files enough, or the database structure, it won't be itself anymore although it originated from phpBB. It's a very common thing in the open source community. You can be as technical about, but using an icon of phpBB doesn't mean that it is still phpBB.
                            Last edited by Vtec44; Sat 12 Nov '05, 10:38am.
                            So Cal Sportbike forum - So Cal Moto - Kawasaki Ninja 250R Forum - Custom vinyl decals - Southern California camping forum

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                            • #44
                              I didn't even look at IPB when moving from phpBB2. I guess it was because I used vB for so long on so many different sites it seemed like the only software to go for. I can still say now though that this software is truly amazing. I use one site that uses IPB and thats Neowin. Im not sure what it is but IPB feels different. In any case I know if I was to make another forum it would be vB for sure.

                              This thread is a weird one though as posting it here is always getting to recieve bias responces.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Many of the IPB forums I visit show codes in their shoutbox,homepage,etc.. It shows errors and stuff... Also, one of my friends told me that it can take a lot of work and time to install a skin. It shows up a lot[And I mean a wholel lot] of errors than vbulletin...

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