Questions I would like to see Joe respond to:

[Loco.M]

Yes, you're right, there are no problems on a dead testforum with cms disabled and don't doing anything on it.

I've installed it on multiple active forums as well and it's running for fine..Thx!

Great reply Joe, keep pushing forward.

[WhatChaMissin]

Yes, you're right, there are no problems on a dead testforum with cms disabled and don't doing anything on it.

I've installed it on multiple active forums as well and it's running for fine..Thx!

Great reply Joe, keep pushing forward.

Please post up some of these active sites that have the CMS enabled. I would love to see how it functions in the wild.

[Anthony89]

Please post up some of these active sites that have the CMS enabled. I would love to see how it functions in the wild.

Likewise

[centris]

I've installed it on multiple active forums as well and it's running for fine..Thx!

Great reply Joe, keep pushing forward.

Looks like he does not want to share guys, what does that tell you?

[icarusforde]

Looks like he does not want to share guys, what does that tell you?

Look at his profile guys, looks like he aint signed on since yesterday when he made that post. *gasp* He must be avoiding the question.

Give him some time.

[Mark.B]

Looks like he does not want to share guys, what does that tell you?

It tells me he's not working at the moment because it's Christmas.

[ManagerJosh]

It tells me he's not working at the moment because it's Christmas.

Normally, I'd say that's great however he has a lot of unhappy customers breathing down his neck at the moment. I'm not sure "not working" during Christmas is exactly the wisest idea at the moment

[Ryan Ashbrook]

Perhaps the high query count isn't something we should be worried about as much as we think...
vBulletin 4 Coding Quality
http://www.adminaddict.net/forum/vbu...ex4/#post57050

As much I like being quoted...

Recent discoveries (on my part) have quite possibly negated my defense of the queries issue, simply because it happens on every page rather than it simply being a "cold cache" as I explained on your site.

This is a problem. The 100 to 200 queries wouldn't be an issue if it was what I explained, but it isn't.

Unfortunately, I haven't even bought the CMS yet, I'm just explaining what I know as a PHP Developer. So I can't confirm or deny my conclusions.

[mykes]

CMS does 52 queries for my home page.

Page generated in 0.0932879447937 seconds with 52 queries, spending 0.0103414058685 doing MySQL queries and 0.0829465389252 doing PHP things.

This is a typical query. Note the elapsed time.

SELECT template
FROM vb_template
WHERE templateid = 5228Time Before: 0.09243 seconds
Time After: 0.09247 seconds
Time Taken: 0.00004 seconds

Or this nastly looking one:

SELECT parent.category AS parentcat, cat.categoryid, cat.category, info.title,
			cat.catleft, cat.catright, info.title AS node, childnode.nodeid, count(nodecat.nodeid) as qty
      	FROM vb_cms_node AS node
			INNER JOIN vb_cms_node AS childnode ON childnode.nodeleft BETWEEN node.nodeleft AND node.noderight
			INNER JOIN vb_cms_nodeinfo AS info ON info.nodeid = childnode.nodeid
      	INNER JOIN vb_cms_category AS parent on parent.parentnode = childnode.nodeid
			INNER JOIN vb_cms_category AS cat ON cat.catleft BETWEEN parent.catleft AND parent.catright
			LEFT JOIN vb_cms_nodecategory AS nodecat ON nodecat.categoryid = cat.categoryid
			WHERE node.nodeid = 1
			GROUP BY parent.category, cat.categoryid, cat.category,
			cat.catleft, cat.catright, info.title, childnode.nodeid, info.title
			ORDER BY childnode.nodeleft, catleft;Time Before: 0.05448 seconds
Time After: 0.05454 seconds
[B]Time Taken: 0.00006 seconds[/B]

[Alfa1]

There is an extensive thread about queries in the CMS already. The high query count has been confirmed all around.

[Super Jinni]

The question is:
What is vB going to do about it?
The amount of queries is just not right. It should be dropped to near 30 or so.

[Floris]

The question is:
What is vB going to do about it?
The amount of queries is just not right. It should be dropped to near 30 or so.

Read the thread:

Good questions, thanks. As I mentioned before, 4.0 is a new release and has some of the short-comings of a new release while still also having overwhelming value (in my opinion). I'll try to answer the specific questions above as best as possible:

1. A lot of folks have mentioned the high query count on CMS; I think 'query count' is a misleading metric. The real question is: how long does it take to render the page? We've made a number of fundamental changes to the DB schema in 4.0 that improve performance in a variety of areas, and some of the improvements have changed the way we approach some parts of the application design. In the case of CMS we would rather have a lot of tiny queries that take a few milliseconds each than a few large joins that take hundreds of milliseconds. Our product offers an incredibly rich set of features including our incredibly fine grained permissions, and we don't want to compromise the offering; that said, we can absolutely do better on CMS performance and we will be working on improving this in the future.
   
2. Regarding personalization/custom profiles: look for this in one of the upcoming point releases.
   
3. As far as the QA process and high bug count: our QA process has been improving constantly throughout the last phase of the development cycle. We think we've delivered a better product, faster than anytime in the history of vBulletin and we will continue to drive new feature development while maintaining high quality. We have recently hired more QA and engineering staff to help out. For more detail on the process we have used and are using, please see my previous article.

I hope that helps give some insight into where we are at. I'm very proud of the great work the team has done on 4.0 and I know that there is a lot more to come.

[the geek]

I am still longing to see a list of mid sized and larger upgrades with the CMS that didn't require new hardware. The only people I am seeing content with the resource usage are hobby sites with minimal activity.

I understand the need to defend ones work and stoically beam with pride to 'rally the troops', however IMO Joe's post is a larger problem then the query count. There is no acceptance of any issues (apart from the throw away comment about 'short-comings'), no acknowledgement of customer frustrations and no apparent drive to do something about it (because apparently there just isn't a problem). Just a bunch of 'emperor has no clothes'. This is why vB is in the state it is in. It really gets my goat as well as I (like many) were really sold on the whole "investing more than ever before, more developers than ever, qualified QA process, strong management team, yadayadayada". I feel like I have a lot vested in vB4 and at the same time feel totally used.

In case you hadn't noticed, my vB love meter just slipped another notch.

[CallieJo]

Good questions, thanks.

Thanks for responding. Much appreciated.

4.0 is a new release and has some of the short-comings of a new release while still also having overwhelming value (in my opinion).

It was coming along nicely and could have really been great. No offense...it's not like it wasn't heading that way...but, missing features from previous versions is a killer for my end users.

I'll try to answer the specific questions above as best as possible:

1. A lot of folks have mentioned the high query count on CMS; I think 'query count' is a misleading metric. The real question is: how long does it take to render the page? We've made a number of fundamental changes to the DB schema in 4.0 that improve performance in a variety of areas, and some of the improvements have changed the way we approach some parts of the application design. In the case of CMS we would rather have a lot of tiny queries that take a few milliseconds each than a few large joins that take hundreds of milliseconds. Our product offers an incredibly rich set of features including our incredibly fine grained permissions, and we don't want to compromise the offering; that said, we can absolutely do better on CMS performance and we will be working on improving this in the future.
2. Regarding personalization/custom profiles: look for this in one of the upcoming point releases.
3. As far as the QA process and high bug count: our QA process has been improving constantly throughout the last phase of the development cycle. We think we've delivered a better product, faster than anytime in the history of vBulletin and we will continue to drive new feature development while maintaining high quality. We have recently hired more QA and engineering staff to help out. For more detail on the process we have used and are using, please see my previous article.

1. I'll reserve further comment on the queries as others have discussed it in length here.
2. This is sad. It's a missing feature that many communities utilize. It took years to get it. Now it's gone and we don't have a solid answer as to when it will be back. Just in one of the upcoming point releases. That could mean weeks or months. Not only is this missing, but customizing the blogs is missing too.
3. Good to hear.
4. I can't help but feel we went backwards when you look at 3.8 compared to 4.0 from an end users perspective. 3.8 has more end user features than 4.0 now. My major concern is how the end users will see this. You take away custom profiles and blogs...and give them what? End user friendliness and personalization is the most important for any social site. If you look in the suggestion forums you will see many requests geared toward just that.

I hope that helps give some insight into where we are at. I'm very proud of the great work the team has done on 4.0 and I know that there is a lot more to come.

If nothing else, it gives a bit of comfort to get a response.

The team, I commend. My concerns are directed at where VB is heading and where we are today with it.

There's no doubt that a roadmap outlining what IB's plans are for vb in the future, would certainly help. Not just "there's great things to come...let's jump for joy", but "here is a list of what is to come in their estimated time frames". And some security in knowing that end users usability will be thought of first and refactored from where we are now.

[Super Jinni]

I am still longing to see a list of mid sized and larger upgrades with the CMS that didn't require new hardware. The only people I am seeing content with the resource usage are hobby sites with minimal activity.

I'm also eager to see that.