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  • #16
    Joe, you may think it was a personal attack, but not being part of the vB development or support team I am only reacting to my opinion of your post and your tactics here.

    Quite frankly I'm surprised that you resorted to the very unprofessional tactic of stating that you were going to write a bad review if Jelsoft did not immediately address your situation and make you feel better (paraphrasing). Very unprofessional indeed. My personal reaction would be to tell you to get stuffed. Obviously Jelsoft care more about you than I do.

    As for me not understanding the difference between an upgrade and a security fix, I most definatly understand. I also understand the risks of running beta software, and would expect that someone in your position would as well. Certainly if I were to review software for a living, I would not expect beta software to be treated like production software. Why you were even running beta software someplace that would be exposed to the general public and open yourself up for attack by hackers is suspect at best.

    Free upgrade service for any reason on a beta is just too much to expect. I believe your position is unreasonable, and we'll have to agree to disagee on that one.

    As I said however, Jelsoft's position on this one and mine are totally unrelated. I have no influence over them, their support policy, their upgrade policy or anything else. I'm just a satisfied customer and get ripped when I see someone demand something that they clearly do not deserve - in my opinion.

    -t
    Tim Hewitt
    myOstrich Internet - Domain Management & Internet Services
    myOstrich Golf - When it comes to golf, we don't have our heads in the sand.

    Comment


    • #17
      wluke,

      Thank you for your excellent and professional response to my concerns. I will also add that even with you having only one person on support, I received a relatively fast response to my initial support inquiry, including one on the fourth of July (a Holiday).

      I have seen great customer service from Jelsoft in the past. My concern expressed here was only with this one support issue even though it appeared to turn into something bigger, which I clarified in the following post:

      "Jelsoft did a great job of outlining its beta program. I have no quams there. A major security issue arose that allowed people to break into vBulletin forums. No problem. It's beta software. That is to be expected and I accept that. The problems arose in trying to get assistance in the issued security fix for the problem. It's a support issue, not a software issue. I have no quams about the excellent software, only about the way support handled the issue. If there is a security fix to a major security hole that is being massively exploited then it seems right that Jelsoft would want to immediately install the security fix onto boards that people paid them to install while allowing others to manually upload the fix accordingly."

      Thank you again and keep up the great work.

      Continued Best,


      Joe Tracy

      Comment


      • #18
        thewitt,

        Once again you've made mischaracterizations and a personal attack. I did not say I would give vBulletin a "negative review" if, as you falsely assert, they didn't immediately address the situation. My concern was over one support issue and how Jelsoft handled that issue. In reality, if you read through the thread, you will see these quotes from me:

        "The problems arose in trying to get assistance in the issued security fix for the problem. It's a support issue, not a software issue. I have no quams about the excellent software, only about the way support handled the issue."

        and

        "vBulletin is, by far, one of the best forum programs out there. Even a bad support experience won't change that opinion in verbal or written form."

        As you can see, these quotes hardly constitute plans for an overall "negative review" over one support issue. Hopefully this clarifies things for you.

        Joe Tracy

        P.S. I think we both agree that Wayne A. Luke's response to this entire thread was one of great professionalism, service, and concern. And that's not always easy to do with customers who have had a bad experience.
        Last edited by jtracy; Sun 8 Jul '01, 11:28pm.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by jtracy
          [clip]Once again you've made mischaracterizations and a personal attack. I did not say I would give vBulletin a "negative review" if, as you falsely assert, they didn't immediately address the situation. My concern was over one support issue and how Jelsoft handled that issue. In reality, if you read through the thread, you will see these quotes from me:[clip]
          Oh I think I understood from the tone of your attack messages exactly what you were after. It was only after you were corrected and chided in this forum did you post anything positive. And again, if you characterize my responses as personal attacks, so be it. Get a life.

          Again, I don't represent Jelsoft in any way, and I would probably refund your money and ask you to return your license if you were my customer. I have little patience for customers who come into a public message board and start slinging mud around to get the attention of a vendor.

          Your messages were clearly aimed at leveraging something you don't deserve out of your pending review. If this was not your intent, you would not have even mentioned that Jelsoft's actions were (again, paraphrasing) "shaping the opinion you would write in your review."

          Not trying to leverage your upcoming review? Yeah, right.

          As far as Wayne's response goes, you are correct. He is a class act. I would not have been anywhere near as kind - which is of course why they will never ask me to support the product .

          -t
          Tim Hewitt
          myOstrich Internet - Domain Management & Internet Services
          myOstrich Golf - When it comes to golf, we don't have our heads in the sand.

          Comment


          • #20
            You know Joe, it's actually a very simple dynamic.

            If you come into a vendor managed product support community forum where the majority of the customers are extremely pleased with the support, service and quality of the product, and you start mud slinging and threatening the people who are providing that service and product, you will get at least one person who reacts poorly.

            In this case that person was me.

            If this surprises you, or offends you, I'm sorry. You should have addressed your problems with the vendor in private and not in a public forum.

            I'm finished with this thread now. I'm not adding any value and it's time for me to shut the **** up.

            -t
            Tim Hewitt
            myOstrich Internet - Domain Management & Internet Services
            myOstrich Golf - When it comes to golf, we don't have our heads in the sand.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by jtracy
              My concern was over one support issue and how Jelsoft handled that issue.
              Professional installation/upgrading, which costs $135, is not a support issue. Support is free via www.vbulletin.com/support and through these forums. Personally I would not have even offered installation for the beta version, but that's just me. They did, however they did it under the same terms as if they installed v1.1.6 and you wished it to be later upgraded - it costs $135 ($60 at the time I believe) and any subsequent upgrades may be applied by the customer (at no cost) or they may be applied by Jelsoft (at additional cost).

              What I don't believe you to be understanding, based on your posts, is that beta software is inherently risky. Chances are there are security holes and if so, if they get out they can be exploited by less-than-upstanding folks. Continuing to run beta software well after a stable and secure version is released is just not smart. By Jelsoft installing the beta software for you, you agreed to the terms - included in this were the fact that the beta software is likely not totally stable and secure, and unfortunately it was not.

              I don't feel you deserve a free upgrade any more than anyone else. Yes it is very unfortunate that your forums were hacked. Yes we wish that had not happened. However I have to believe that if one runs a website, they are capable of uploading files, typing in a URL, and clicking "Next" through some scripts. That is what is involved in upgrading.
              I find it hard to believe that you had the beta release forums installed and then didn't check back with Jelsoft or these boards for 3 months. And if you did, then you knew that vBulletin 2.0.0 was released. Why did you wait to upgrade? I would think that someone who was reviewing a product for a magazine would want to be running the latest version. I also agree with thewitt in that if you were indeed reviewing it for a magazine, why in the world would you use a beta version?

              Comment


              • #22
                I'm confused; you acknowledge that it is beta and inherently risky, then you require that they should personally apply patches to your beta code?

                Ridiculous!

                There’s no obligation for them to do ANYTHING for your beta code! They state that ‘well it’s beta so there could be huge holes, we will release new versions to fix’ – that’s what happens when you purchase beta-code. Seems like a case of ‘buyer beware’.

                I think this sums it all up:
                It's a support issue, not a software issue.
                Note: Since vBulletin 2.0.0 is BETA grade software, we can't guarantee that it will be free of bugs. Also, we're unable to offer any official support for this version.
                Yes, it is unfortunate that you got hacked. However, you assumed those risks when you installed BETA code in PRODUCTION use. Jelsoft installed the BETA code and said ‘well, that’s all the help you’re going to get from us. Remember this is unsupported and could explode’. There are hundreds (or thousands) of people who have purchased vB. They may have paid for installation. HOWEVER, after the transaction is complete and Jelsoft has installed it (again if they paid for it) then Jelsoft’s role is complete. They have ZERO further obligation to you. If you want the latest version you can install it yourself or pay again.
                Matt
                Sybase DBA / PHP fanatic
                Sybase v. MySQL v. Oracle | Why I don't like MySQL | Download Sybase TODAY! | Visit DBForums.com!

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