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  • AlexanderT
    replied
    Originally posted by Wayne Luke View Post
    Of the 7880 issues entered into JIRA for vBulletin, 5976 of them have been entered by staff.
    Why have there been so many issues to begin with? Shouldn't 9 out of 10 have been obvious to the developers - even without an explicit note in Jira? All I hear is Jira here and Jira there, you gotta enter it or it won't be noticed, etc. Yet, ultimately I fail to see how it's going to help to develop a premium product.

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  • Wayne Luke
    replied
    Of the 7880 issues entered into JIRA for vBulletin, 5976 of them have been entered by staff. So to say we don't enter JIRAs is false. However even staff don't have full permissions in the software so being able to assign someone else as the reporter may be possible. Not sure we want to go down that road. Lately, we've been entering more JIRA's on the customer's behalf. Usually we want to be able to recreate the issue first though. I've personally have created 291 issues for vBulletin 5. Of which 150 have been resolved currently. I've participated in another 551. Each one can be a significant investment of time. Glad to do it when I can though.

    When you're entering a JIRA, all you need to do is provide four pieces of information. 1) Version where the problem occurs. 2) Summary/Title. 3) Description of the issue. 4) Whether it is a bug, improvement request or feature request. The rest will be filled in and/or modified by the bug scrubbers, QA Team or BRB.

    Also with enhancements in vBulletin 5 such as API Extensions and Template Hooks, we can probably help more with customizations over time. Though we won't be able to support third-party code. With lower need to edit default templates, more possibilities open up. Same as when Plugins were introduced and there was less need to edit the default files.

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  • hornstar6969
    replied
    This whole add it to Jira thing could be solved if Jira had the ability to add who the reporter is (staff only function) that way staff could add it for you and they could enter you as the reporter. Problem solved.

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  • DemOnstar
    replied
    Ok, thanks for the explanation, it does seem to clarify certain criteria but I don't think it clears the topic fully.

    As I see it, these problems are reported for a reason, whether it be unfamiliarity, confusion, or actual, legitimate claims.
    The whole VB 5 thing has my head in a whirl.

    I sincerely hope that when the gold release is complete I have a site that is simple and problem free.
    I have never done anything akin to this and it is all way above my head.

    For the simple user, it is not simple at all.....

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  • Trevor Hannant
    replied
    Originally posted by DemOnstar View Post
    But why is it not submitted by staff? If they suggest it should be put into JIRA, why don't they do it?
    Because as the reporter, if the Devs/QA need to come back for further information on recreating the bug or your server environment etc, that won't happen if it's a staff member that raises it. We do sometimes raise them, particularly if we can see the issue on here or our own sites.

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  • DemOnstar
    replied
    Oops

    - - - Updated - - -

    There is a point to be made on this one.

    Originally posted by dilbert View Post
    While I don't find it acceptable for customers to be rude to staff, I find it appalling that staff lash back at customers. To me the biggest turn off and cop out for not improving the product is hearing about Jira and if it's not in there, then it won't get fixed - that's fine, then staff should enter it..
    I see it so many times that it should be added to JIRA. All of the time I want to add it myself but I refrain as it is not my observation. But why is it not submitted by staff? If they suggest it should be put into JIRA, why don't they do it?

    I guess many people do not know how to do a JIRA, it took me a while before I understood the tracker process.
    And if it never goes in, it will just lie there until it goes away and things may never improve.

    If I see this comment again, is it ok if I submit it?

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  • dilbert
    replied
    I stand corrected on the number of users who have stock sites.

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  • BirdOPrey5
    replied
    Originally posted by dilbert View Post
    I agree you don't provide the support and that was my criticism. You don't even try. How many vb installations are completely stock? I suspect very few.
    Maybe true, though as support staff I do see a number of forums without any mods. That said virtually all VB forums can be returned to stock condition by simply adding 1 line to config.php (Disabling hooks) and switching to the default style. It takes an admin literally 2 minutes in most cases to get the forum in stock condition- and if the problem persists we can then properly support it.

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  • Zachery
    replied
    Originally posted by dilbert View Post
    I agree you don't provide the support and that was my criticism. You don't even try. How many vb installations are completely stock? I suspect very few.

    The vast majority of our customers never do more than change the logo, if that. While some people are sold on the third party stuff, this isn't really a selling factor to many of our sales.

    If you wanted us to see support for third party addons directly from us, the base cost of the software would skyrocket, that or we'd be charging per incident as mark suggests.

    Its not our job to support that code. Now I (and most of us) do our best to work around it.

    For example if a customer comes to me with a problem, I ask them to disable the plugins, try the default style and language. He says that isn't it, now I go try the same thing. If its a bug in vBulletin we can move forward. If I find out they missed a step and disabling plugins, or the default style/language fixes things, I tell them that.

    It might not be what you want, but unless you really want to see costs for the software go crazy, then this is the way it has to be.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mark.B
    replied
    Originally posted by hornstar6969 View Post
    And it has been a complaint since the Jelsoft days as well.

    I can see both sides of the story.

    What really annoys me tho is when I say in a support ticket that I have disabled all plugins and uploaded all files and explain my problem the first reply I get is try disabling your plugins and uploading all files. My post was clearly never read and then the 2nd reply seems to always take ages. With an issue you don't want to go around in circles.
    I accept that the query should be read fully first.
    That said, I have lost count of the number of times over the years that someone says they have disabled all their plugins, and then when you visit the site you can spot dozens of them.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mark.B
    replied
    Originally posted by dilbert View Post
    I agree you don't provide the support and that was my criticism. You don't even try. How many vb installations are completely stock? I suspect very few.
    I disagree. A typical response is disable everything and see if that fixes the problem... If it is, well - sorry you're on your own. Another typical response is we don't support modified code...
    There is little to no support there. If you are able to figure out what mod is causing the issue you might get help. I think this is simply another way of blowing off the customer.
    I'm going to have to disagree wholeheartedly with all of this.

    As well as work for vBulletin, I provide support (and have done for years) for a range of Enterprise products, mainly from Microsoft, via one of their Gold Partners.
    It is completely impossible to even attempt to support user customisations. The official support has to begin and end with the default product.

    If you want to look into the logistics and costings of providing support for third party modifications for ANY product; you are firstly talking requiring skilled coders / developers to do your support, rather than mere support agents.
    Then you are looking at the time and effort for these coders to investigate the third party code they probably haven't even seen before, evaluate it, deploy it to a test environment, attempt to replicate the customer's problem, establish what part of the third party code is causing that problem, and then write a fix for that issue. Then it needs to be tested, not just to ensure it fixes the issue, but also that it doesn't break anything else. And if it does break something else, and that something else is another piece of modified code, then the cycle starts again.

    I can tell you that in my "other" job mentioned above, this type of support can be provided to clients on a "per issue" basis at a cost of £850 + VAT per day. As at today, that's $1,318.99 USD. A typical investigation into a major product failure caused by such third party code would be upwards of two days, unless you get lucky and it's something simple.

    Whilst accepting vBulletin is overall less complicated than the software in the example above, it does give an indication of the type of work involved.

    Leave a comment:


  • hornstar6969
    replied
    Originally posted by Mark.B View Post
    We have never supported modified code. How could we possibly provide GOOD support for code our team did not write?

    We do try to point people in the right direction where possible though.

    There is also a dedicated modification community for modified code support.
    And it has been a complaint since the Jelsoft days as well.

    I can see both sides of the story.

    What really annoys me tho is when I say in a support ticket that I have disabled all plugins and uploaded all files and explain my problem the first reply I get is try disabling your plugins and uploading all files. My post was clearly never read and then the 2nd reply seems to always take ages. With an issue you don't want to go around in circles.

    Leave a comment:


  • dilbert
    replied
    Originally posted by Mark.B View Post
    We have never supported modified code. How could we possibly provide GOOD support for code our team did not write?
    I agree you don't provide the support and that was my criticism. You don't even try. How many vb installations are completely stock? I suspect very few.

    Originally posted by Mark.B View Post
    We do try to point people in the right direction where possible though.
    I disagree. A typical response is disable everything and see if that fixes the problem... If it is, well - sorry you're on your own. Another typical response is we don't support modified code...

    Originally posted by Mark.B View Post
    There is also a dedicated modification community for modified code support.
    There is little to no support there. If you are able to figure out what mod is causing the issue you might get help. I think this is simply another way of blowing off the customer.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mark.B
    replied
    We have never supported modified code. How could we possibly provide GOOD support for code our team did not write?

    We do try to point people in the right direction where possible though.

    There is also a dedicated modification community for modified code support.

    Leave a comment:


  • chris15440
    replied
    Originally posted by dilbert View Post
    I was kidding about being excited about winning. At this point I can't ever see moving to vB5. Most of the vB4 features are missing, I can't figure out what's new about vB5 or why I'd want it, Id have less support than I do now if I upgrade, or I'd have to pay for support. I suspect I'll move to another platform when it's time for me to upgrade, but for now vB4 is OK. I think the support / management at vB have completely lost all control of their vision and product. While I don't find it acceptable for customers to be rude to staff, I find it appalling that staff lash back at customers. To me the biggest turn off and cop out for not improving the product is hearing about Jira and if it's not in there, then it won't get fixed - that's fine, then staff should enter it. Next after that is hearing that we don't offer function X, go look over at vb.org, but be warned if you make any changes to the product, you get zilch for support. Many of the current support staff also post mods at vb.org and are more than capable of supporting those people. Take a look at how support staff respond to people over at IPS for example, they actually help people who have modified systems (who doesn't modify the code???) and provide roadmaps to let you know where they are going.
    Anyhow, didn't intend to vB bash again, just saying it's not likely I'll stay anymore. I think the vB debacle is far worse than the vB4 one and yet people are afraid to say anything.
    Very well put! Totally agree. Not afraid to voice my opinion anymore than staff isn't afraid to speak their opinions freely lately.
    Last edited by chris15440; Fri 15 Feb '13, 5:36am.

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