problems or solutions?

[rhens]

looking down this thread list, i see endless threads of complaints from "the sky is falling" to "where is the bathroom?". a very large percentage of the users here are license holders. some are just getting started, and some have been running forums for a very long time. the powers that be at vBulletin are doing one of two things here. they are either a) running their business into the ground, or b) raising the bar for forum software users by taking advantage of a valuable resource.... experienced forum owners and developers.

in its current state, vB5.0 is laying around in boxes. we can see where they want to go with it, but choose to gripe about how much it costs for the state its in, or all this stuff doesnt work...and that another software developer would never insult our hard work by selling a forum "kit" that is supposed to replace our years of hard work and dedication with that which would destroy it all. continuing to do so would add months of development time to the gold release...and people will still *****. bearing in mind that the competitors can and are likely reading all the comments posted here, the few programmers assigned to this project are busy running around telling people where the light switches are...instead of fixing the real problems that keep vB5.0 from becoming a viable product.

we have an opportunity here to help create cutting edge software for internet based communities. each of you have talents that have kept you in the forum game...not only as participant, but in many cases leaders in your genre's. whether you own one or twenty-one licenses, you have developed your interest/hobby/livelihood to a level few can match. why not put that knowledge to work? instead of using a product someone is shoving down our throats, why not assist in the final assembly? you look at something and see clearly its messed up...why not suggest a solution based on your experience, instead of railing on about how vB ruined your day because of this issue? the result would be a better, faster, more efficient software that contains a piece of your knowledge and experience other software developers cannot equal.

many of you have heard the adage "how do you eat an elephant?". of course the answer is "one bite at a time". lets fix this thing, and get it out there for all to see...and be envious about...shall we?

if you are experiencing a problem, by all means identify it. just spare us all the existential prose and claims of deceit and backstabbing. if you see something you may have a solution for...be forthcoming with that as well. likewise, cut to the chase and explain your resolution for the problem. by doing things in this manner, we'll save hours and hours of time between now and the time when vB5.0 can be released as a usable live product.

[tickedon]

I think the biggest problem is that many of us lived through vB4. It took two years to get to a state where people were generally happy with it. I see that you've only been here for less than a month, and I'll ask that you come back in two years and update this thread with your thoughts then.

We're all hoping vB5 will be great - otherwise with XF under a mountain of litigation, and vB5 in a not-ideal position, that leaves Invision as about the only reasonable commercial software. And I'm not really a fan of monopolies!

[rhens]

that may be what it looks like, but i've been administrating vB forums since 3.8 was out, and have been a licensed owner since 4.0 came out. 4.0 wasnt perfect...no. there were things we wanted to do, but couldnt. just because i wasn't whining on this board years ago is no indication of experience with the company...or with the software. i'm good at what i do...i just dont see anything useful coming from posts like the one above from a user who cannot see past the end of his nose. the forum format posed in 4.2...and every version before that is tired...its run its course. every forum is basically the same. oh yeah...the pictures are different, but its all the same old tired thing over and over. sure, there are websites that put this format to good use... but there are others that require the updated technology.

your perceived "senior member" status is all you're flying? such a wise member and true leader of internet forums should possess answers...not just more of "woe is me" crap i'm seeing elsewhere. fyi....i'm 54 years old and have been doing this every day since 2005. in some cases, 12-14 hours a day, so dont give me that condescending line...give us some competent answers to the problems posed

[Ace]

I think the biggest problem is that many of us lived through vB4.

If that is really the case, you need to suck it up and stop moaning. vB5 is not vB4.

[Mupetz]

@rhens You confuse commercial software with open source software. vBulletin ain't phpBB. We are customers and not contributors or donators

[Infopro]

@rhens You confuse commercial software with open source software. vBulletin ain't phpBB. We are customers and not contributors or donators

Agreed.

I'm not moving to Detroit to help make cars better, either.

[sadikb]

we have an opportunity here to help create cutting edge software for internet based communities. each of you have talents that have kept you in the forum game...not only as participant, but in many cases leaders in your genre's. whether you own one or twenty-one licenses, you have developed your interest/hobby/livelihood to a level few can match. why not put that knowledge to work? instead of using a product someone is shoving down our throats, why not assist in the final assembly? you look at something and see clearly its messed up...why not suggest a solution based on your experience, instead of railing on about how vB ruined your day because of this issue? the result would be a better, faster, more efficient software that contains a piece of your knowledge and experience other software developers cannot equal.

rhens... what makes you think we did not do that?

Browse through the old threads in Licensed Customer Feedback forum and you will see that most of us spent painful hours of our time writing long posts with specific details of what was wrong with VB4 and ways to correct them. Hours of our time which could have been more profitably used, freely given to improve the product we all paid for. And what happened? The advice was very royally ignored. People painfully reported bugs and even posted fixes in Jira and even then there were minor and trivial issues which remained unfixed for years. All until IB realized they needed to improve their reputation if they wanted to sell another new version and hired some good programmers (Paul et all) and fixed VB4 to a respectable state. That was years later and seeing all our efforts go in vain, we just gave up.

Try your own advice for some time. Post suggestions, fixes etc, and see how many days you can keep going when most of what you say is royally ignored. Then wait when a few years down the line, someone who joins this forum newly says that why do you not participate constructively.

[rhens]

you have three options, in my opinion....

1) continue to run 4.2, and check back in 6 months

2) buy 5.0 and do what you can to cut the b.s. and assist in getting it up and running

3) go to a competitor and buy its software...leaving us to work through the remaining issues with 5.0


when i look at my hands, i do not see your arms in them while i twist them. i've been using vB software for 7 years and no....i'm not impressed or happy with the state of the "beta" release of 5.0. i have, indeed, purchased 5.0 and a years worth of hosting specifically for this project....a ground up application. my 4.2 forum is floundering while this takes place...as there is no point in further developing it due to it being obsolete. i am a patient person....i can, indeed, wait until 5.0 is stable enough to write the custom codes and build it into what it will be. what i do find taxing is this forum being filled with people complaining that a clearly marked "beta" package is not ready to be installed in a live site, and taking up IB's limited dedicated staff's resources...instead of getting this thing rolling.

what i can and will tell you is that i will not buy vB6.0. the way this package was handled is a poor representation of an internet retailer selling and servicing its customer base. that said...how about we get 5.0 to a point where its considered stable enough to use the advertised features in time to launch some websites by the holidays....then the minor glitches can be addressed.

i am not minimizing your past attempts with previous versions, nor am i telling you what to do with your forums...and expect the same from you. as they say....lead, follow, or get out of the way. i come here for constructive help for issues i need guidance on...not to read threads that tell me to go somewhere else. that is a total waste of my time...and yours. when 6.0 comes out, rest assured you wont see me in here telling everyone to run for their lives.

[In Omnibus]

Thread after thread of typical consumerism. Purchasing, or more accurately, licensing a product based upon something other than the product as is and then blaming the manufacturer. "But the salesperson told me ..." "I was promised ..." Forum solutions are no more a one solution fits all product than are any other consumer product. No matter what state the product is released in there will be complaints. It doesn't do this. It used to do that. It's too complicated. It isn't coded up to X specification. Competitor product X does Y. Why doesn't this product? So, vBulletin comes as close as anyone ever has to creating a fully customizable product that will allow the product to be whatever the end user desires and people still complain. Because it isn't ready for production sites yet. Because a large part of the customization of the product requires the end user to do some work. vB4 is three years old. That's an eternity if the realm of software. At some point you have to move on. And yet, there is a version 4.2.1 scheduled for release in the near future. So, despite the claims of leaving its consumer base twisting in the wind IB is still supporting its three year old product, and no one had to purchase an extended warranty.

I've been working with vBulletin for about twelve years now and one thing that never changes is no matter how functional any version of the software becomes it isn't good enough for some.

As for me, I'll develop vB5 with the full and complete knowledge of what is is I purchased, and what I did not purchase.

[soniceffect]

looking down this thread list, i see endless threads of complaints from "the sky is falling" to "where is the bathroom?". a very large percentage of the users here are license holders. some are just getting started, and some have been running forums for a very long time. the powers that be at vBulletin are doing one of two things here. they are either a) running their business into the ground, or b) raising the bar for forum software users by taking advantage of a valuable resource.... experienced forum owners and developers.

in its current state, vB5.0 is laying around in boxes. we can see where they want to go with it, but choose to gripe about how much it costs for the state its in, or all this stuff doesnt work...and that another software developer would never insult our hard work by selling a forum "kit" that is supposed to replace our years of hard work and dedication with that which would destroy it all. continuing to do so would add months of development time to the gold release...and people will still *****. bearing in mind that the competitors can and are likely reading all the comments posted here, the few programmers assigned to this project are busy running around telling people where the light switches are...instead of fixing the real problems that keep vB5.0 from becoming a viable product.

we have an opportunity here to help create cutting edge software for internet based communities. each of you have talents that have kept you in the forum game...not only as participant, but in many cases leaders in your genre's. whether you own one or twenty-one licenses, you have developed your interest/hobby/livelihood to a level few can match. why not put that knowledge to work? instead of using a product someone is shoving down our throats, why not assist in the final assembly? you look at something and see clearly its messed up...why not suggest a solution based on your experience, instead of railing on about how vB ruined your day because of this issue? the result would be a better, faster, more efficient software that contains a piece of your knowledge and experience other software developers cannot equal.

many of you have heard the adage "how do you eat an elephant?". of course the answer is "one bite at a time". lets fix this thing, and get it out there for all to see...and be envious about...shall we?

if you are experiencing a problem, by all means identify it. just spare us all the existential prose and claims of deceit and backstabbing. if you see something you may have a solution for...be forthcoming with that as well. likewise, cut to the chase and explain your resolution for the problem. by doing things in this manner, we'll save hours and hours of time between now and the time when vB5.0 can be released as a usable live product.

Completely agree. And no people its not open source however what it is also not is finalized. Yes people give opinions at times however it often comes with so much rubbish it cant quite manage to cut through the crap.

Simple things like "im not posting it in jira because of xyz" is pathetic. People saying "ivr already moved because this and that and the other", well fantastic for you, please go and play with your new toys and let the people who are going to be using it play with theirs.

People argue for nothing other than the sake of arguing and then when someone disagrees they throw over the fanboi card. Its almost like the latest joker in a pack of cards and ironically thats just what it is, a joke.

[AlexanderT]

Uhm. No, a customer not posting to JIRA is not pathetic. This is not about a customer having a special, individual request or finding an exotic, difficult to reproduce bug. It's about a piece of code released as beta and sold as such despite the fact that there have been so many things wrong with it. The very fact that you expect customers to come forward and "identify" those obvious issues says enough about the current state of this company.

[In Omnibus]

Customers assisting with the identification of "bugs" in vBulletin software is not a new concept. Customers assisting with the identification of "bugs" in any software is not a new concept. Windows, Adobe, Apple, pretty much any known software has a built-in error or crash report function. vBulletin is no different. Nothing is gained by bashing the product and the company in every thread.

[soniceffect]

Uhm. No, a customer not posting to JIRA is not pathetic. This is not about a customer having a special, individual request or finding an exotic, difficult to reproduce bug. It's about a piece of code released as beta and sold as such despite the fact that there have been so many things wrong with it. The very fact that you expect customers to come forward and "identify" those obvious issues says enough about the current state of this company.

Im sorry but no you are wrong. It is pathetic. If you go to any other forum software they will ask you to post into the relevant section for bugs. This doesnt matter wether its a forum, a bug tracker, or whatever. It doesnt matter if its exotic or difficult to reproduce. How hard do you think it is for developers to keep track of bugs which are spread throughout multiple sections on a forum.

What is more pathetic is that when IB, the staff, and the developer are not organised that people call them every name under the sun. Unorganised, unprofessional, etc etc etc etc, however the second they try to organise something and do something in a correct manor to help them track, categorise and remove the duplication of bugs, improvement requests and more people critisise it. So Im sorry but its all pathetic.

The fact is that no matter what anyone that works for IB does, certain people will say it is wrong. It doesnt matter whether it "is" actually wrong or not. One of these days people will grow up.

I've said it time and time again, quite diplomatically. You get people such as Shaun and Scott who although I dont always agree with them at least do not argue for no apparent reason, then you get everyone else who argues for the sake of arguing. Some of us want to make the software better. Some of us dont thing its as bad as the rest of you make it out to be. Some of us have our own opinions and regardless of the ridiculous fanbois statements actually have our own minds. The only fanbois on here are actually the people who are joining the "hate vbulletin regardless of what they change" crew. You will eventually realise how moronic you guys actually look at times.

[AlexanderT]

How hard do you think it is for developers to keep track of bugs...

This post is accompanied by floods of tears. Are you done now with your insults?

[soniceffect]

This post is accompanied by floods of tears. Are you done now with your insults?

That was all you could come up with? I said my piece and Im sorry but if people feel the word "pathetic" is an insult then maybe its time people stop being. Sorry, it just gets annoying when every single topic on the forum is people going over and over and over the same things.

Answer me one question. Since when has it become a problem to post something in the correct area? We are all forum admin, I would have thought we would be the last people arguing the case about not posting things in Jira. Its almost like people don't want things to be fixed just so that they can moan about them again a week later.