Way back in June 2002.....

[rylin]

A bad thing? Uh, yeah. It can be a bad thing. Its called nagging.

Do you think you are now entitled to jelsoft project guidelines for your personal approval?

Don't you think that sounds a bit...err...pompous?



Enough already.

I didn't create the discussion.
I replied to it - the vb team is capable of just ignoring threads like these.
The threads aren't only for the vb devs, you know.

I never claimed i was entitled to jelsoft's project guidelines, nor would i be interested in having them.
That sure would sound pompous and arrogant, but please. Don't put words in my mouth.

[Kathy]

Pointing out mistakes already made allows for improvement.
While we've heard that jelsoft intend to rework their release methods, we still don't know how.
Giving them our thoughts shows them what we want and expect - and that can't be a bad thing, can it?

A bad thing? Uh, yeah. It can be a bad thing. Its called nagging.

Do you think you are now entitled to jelsoft project guidelines for your personal approval?

Don't you think that sounds a bit...err...pompous?



Enough already.

[the Sandman]

Pointing out mistakes already made allows for improvement.

Pointing them out once or twice...maybe. Dwelling on them over and over after the vB Staff has openly admitted the need for improvement - Unproductive at best, maybe even counterproductive. Criticism *can* be a tool, but it *shouldn't* be a club. Stop hitting them in the head with it already...we all get it!

[rylin]

Do you honestly think your public complaints help the matter one iota?

Jelsoft owes its customers nothing.

If they closed up shop tomorrow, shutting down production of VB3 (gasp!) they would have the honorable stable software known to us all as VB2.

Enough already, okay?

It will be released when its ready and all the fussing, finger pointing and complaining will not speed up the process.

Okay then, get back to your own boards.

Pointing out mistakes already made allows for improvement.
While we've heard that jelsoft intend to rework their release methods, we still don't know how.
Giving them our thoughts shows them what we want and expect - and that can't be a bad thing, can it?

[Kathy]

Do you honestly think your public complaints help the matter one iota?

Jelsoft owes its customers nothing.

If they closed up shop tomorrow, shutting down production of VB3 (gasp!) they would have the honorable stable software known to us all as VB2.

Enough already, okay?

It will be released when its ready and all the fussing, finger pointing and complaining will not speed up the process.

Okay then, get back to your own boards.

[rylin]

By the way, if I may interject with one helpful jewel of software management -- pick a release date and stick to it. Publicize it and reach it.

Now, release dates are almost entirely arbitrary. The vBulletin team should pick a release cycle (in essence, the frequency with which they'll release new versions) and then go by that -- it would both give a huge edge in the industry and prevent things like this from happening.

If you're not on target to meet a release date (and you should give yourselves some padding so as to keep that from being a normal occurence), cut down on features -- as Wayne suggested earlier, vB3 should have been released sans some features if necessary. You've got a decent-sized development team, so you could have even gotten a significant start on vB 3.1 will vB3 was in beta.

Anyway, just a suggestion. That's how non-Web software development is done.

I seem to be dragging & dropping the icon a few times today

[iDavid]

By the way, if I may interject with one helpful jewel of software management -- pick a release date and stick to it. Publicize it and reach it.

Now, release dates are almost entirely arbitrary. The vBulletin team should pick a release cycle (in essence, the frequency with which they'll release new versions) and then go by that -- it would both give a huge edge in the industry and prevent things like this from happening.

If you're not on target to meet a release date (and you should give yourselves some padding so as to keep that from being a normal occurence), cut down on features -- as Wayne suggested earlier, vB3 should have been released sans some features if necessary. You've got a decent-sized development team, so you could have even gotten a significant start on vB 3.1 while vB3 was in beta.

Anyway, just a suggestion. That's how non-Web software development is done.

[rylin]

I am sorry Chris Stewart and rylin. I miss-understood that both of you know exactly what you are doing. You both have released forum software equivalent to vBulletin and you both know exactly how to run a business.

</sarcasm>

Like I said, I've done release management for more complex software than this.
I've also worked under the pressure of proper release management.

Like it or not, this industry has common release definitions.

I didn't claim I knew how to run a business - I leave that to management.
That said, I do know software development and its cycles.

I also know a few things about common sense - like not letting a developer be in charge of release management. (No, nothing against Kier. I've just seen a whole bunch of things fsck up due to improper planning).

Next time you want to troll, don't assume that everyone on the internet is clueless. There's a bunch of people (including the vB developers) that know what they're talking about. In this matter, I consider myself one of them.

[6impy]

Meh, I'm willing to wait patiently, how ever long it takes. Even the best of companies make mistakes.

[InSite]

The complaints tend to subside when there are official updates and announcements as to progress. It's only because everyone has been 'left in the dark' running the same beta version for a month now that there is this anxiety.

vBulletin used to give fortnightly updates, but this was stopped as we were led to believe the release was imminent, or that beta's would be along quicker than that. Obviously, another major obstacle has cropped up.

[the Sandman]

We all completely agree that this has taken too long and this wont happen again with all of our future projects.

A more precise documentation and timeline will be used rather than the current unorganised system.

I agree it has taken too long, and the preview site should not have been opened until we were ready to enter into a Beta Status. I also think some features such as RSS Feeds, Subscriptions, Cron Jobs and other "external" features should have been rolled out in a 2.5 version which would have gotten them into the hands of the customers and used in the thousands of server setups which we cannot test on.
However, what is done is done and lamenting on the past isn't going to help anyone.

As Scott said we agree that this has taken too long and this won't happen again with future projects. Sadly we won't have the ability to travel back in time and change how this was done until vB 6 at the earliest.

Do any of you believe there is a constructive purpose for pursuing this issue past this point other than trying to punish the vB Staff, to "kick them when they're down"? Do you believe the delay is purposeful, or caused by anything other than good intentions? Let's get the venting out of our systems and let these guys concentrate on the business at hand. They deserve our respect and support in this situation. Life is full of little disappointments...

[babydoll]

Have a look at this and check the date.

It is the thread announcing the first vBulletin 3 Public Preview Site - this was back in June 2002!!

vBulletin.com have now been running vB3 on their site for almost one year (Nov 2002).

Since the vBulletin 3 Public Preview Site, I have had to renew my vB3 license twice and I still haven't got vB3.

I know the devs are working hard on this, but could they have kept the work undercover a bit longer? People have now been expecting it for almost 1.5 years now, and although I'm a patient guy, I'm starting to get a little annoyed.

I realise that if I ask how much longer it is going to take, I will not get an answer and users will go on about the death of many kittens or something silly.

Anyone else starting to feel the same as me about this?

I agree, the developers are working just as hard as they can to unveil a stable product, but I feel the need to add the following.

I've quietly followed these debates since they started way back in April of 2002. Does anyone remember the contest pertaining to the person who guessed the closest to the release date of vB3.0 would win some ridicules prize? That started, if memory serves me right, in April 2002. Most started guessing May and June, and some even July 4th....of 2002. Boy were they off.

I also renewed my license twice in anticipation of vB 3.0. Now before anyone jumps on me and says, well if your not happy with the product, find another that suites your needs, I'll tell you plain and simple, had I have known in April 2002 what I know now in October 2003, I would have given that very serious consideration. I started my community in June of 1998, using Ultimate Bulletin Board, I was a loyal customer for 3 years. I purchased vBulletin on May 11, 2001, in hope of joining a progressive group of developers who had a vision for the future.

Ultimate Bulletin Board has changed from a flat file system, to database driven program, along with a CMS, with a support system that is second to none. Ikonboard progressed to the point of offering most of vBulletins current features in a free software program. Here we are, October 2003, and as best as I can guess, we are looking at Christmas 2003 for the RC release.

I can not speak for the entire customer base, I can only speak for myself, and I say, it was wrong for Jelsoft to string their customers along. Jelsoft, will no doubt, come through on their promise to one day release vB 3.0, it will be, no doubt, a long time coming before I once again follow the carrot placed in front of my nose.

[tgillespie]

I am sorry Chris Stewart and rylin. I miss-understood that both of you know exactly what you are doing. You both have released forum software equivalent to vBulletin and you both know exactly how to run a business.

</sarcasm>

What I am trying to say is that depending on how you think software should be released is probably a lot different than how the vB dev team thinks it should be. Who cares if they call beta what you call alpha. The meat behind this issue is that they are working on producing a final product. They acknowledged that they did some things wrong, but besides that they still need to keep plugging away, even if its not carried out exactly to plan.

Quit complaining; because you have no room to talk, nor does you're talk have any room here. You both provide nothing positive with you're complaint posts.

[Scott MacVicar]

my rewrites have been on bugs reported that obviously can't be done effeciently using the current method hence a re-write.

We've already admited that for all future releases we will perform more planning and set internal deadlines for each stage.

[rylin]

I will note, however (and I think you agree, but this is just to clarify), that "critical rewrites" in the RC stage should not, ideally, happen -- they're solely when a last-minute code base is found not to work correctly in production, not routine, planned rewrites of code that has known problems.

Definitely.
But if you run into a major security issue, performance issue, stupidity issue or just simple plain bad design logic - you should rewrite it (and test, and test, and test, and test..). Especially in the case of a security issue.