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  • BrowserWars: Mozilla vs. Internet Explorer

    I say BrowserWars, but PLEASE OH PLEASE keep this a normal debate about the pros and cons of each browser WITHOUT going into the offensive. PLEASE just discuss features of each that you like, and don't get upset when someone else responds to you saying he finds your favorite feature the worst invention ever, or anything to such an extent. Be open to others disagreeing, and allow them to have their opinion. Don't look down on others for using a different browser than you, if you can.


    Okay, I'll start off with:

    101 things Mozilla can do that Internet Explorer can not:
    http://www.xulplanet.com/ndeakin/arts/reasons.html

    Next, I'd like to add to the above list:

    - Type Ahead Find: the newest version of TAF allows you to search for normal text on any HTML page by first typing a / and then typing in your search word. Without the /, it will only search all links;
    - PROPER implementation of CSS1 and CSS2 (and bits of CSS3 already); Microsoft claims that Internet Explorer 6 fully supports CSS Level 1, yet this is not true at all, which this example proves. That page only uses CSS from the W3C CSS1 Specifications yet nonetheless, it will not work properly (at all) in IE all the way up to, and including, version 6 (with latest patches);
    - More Cookie and Image management options than that list mentions (as it was based on Mozi 1.2 and we've progressed a lot again since then);
    - better SSL, HTTP 1.1 and Certificates support.


    What I like best about Mozilla (and equally proper browsers) is:
    * `Pop-up killer`: you can just tell it not to open unrequested windows, no need for any software or firewall to take care of this for you.
    * the CSS support: CSS is my friend. IE is not a friend to real CSS. Bad IE!
    * proper PNG support: This vBulletin Style where you can use your own colors of choice for the entire style (including the images!), is only possible thanks to CSS2 and alpha-transparent PNG's.
    * Tabbed browsing. You have NO idea how incredibly useful this is if you're still using IE. God's Gift to Internet users. Definitely.
    * Security. Very simple. IE lacks it in many important places. Mozilla doesn't. This Page shows that there are currently (at time of writing) 21 unpatched vulnerabilities in IE, some of which Microsoft refuses to acknowledge even though they have been proven to exist (regardless of what patches you apply, hence the name unpatched vulnerabilities ).

    For now, I'll leave it at this. So, what's your browser and what do you like best about it?
    64
    Mozilla
    20.31%
    13
    Mozilla Firebird
    28.13%
    18
    Galeon / Konqueror
    1.56%
    1
    Safari / IE4Mac
    6.25%
    4
    IE 6
    40.63%
    26
    Other...
    3.13%
    2

  • #2
    Firebird. I can't argue yet, though, as you agree. Basically.
    "63,000 bugs in the code, 63,000 bugs, you get 1 whacked with a service pack, now there's 63,005 bugs in the code."
    "Before you critisize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you critisize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes."
    Utopia Software - Current Software: Utopia News Pro (news management system)

    Comment


    • #3
      I prefer Mozilla
      And I use IE a lot too
      And I dont use netscape, since I already use mozilla.
      And I dont use any IE skinable/active-x steeling overlay for ie-replacement-wanna be. since i already use ie.

      I use opera, just to make sure lame browsers also have a chance at a design.

      Why should 1 be teh best? Both show the page

      Comment


      • #4
        We can discuss the (dis-)advantages of Firebird over Mozilla and vice versa


        I prefer Mozilla cos it has more settings and things to adjust, which I _want_ to adjust. Firebird is lighter, though.

        Comment


        • #5
          Given that MS has stopped new development for a "standalone" version of IE, it's not surprising that actively developed browsers like Mozilla are taking the lead.

          I do find it frustrating that IE doesn't render semitransparent parts of PNGs correctly but there are ways around it, thankfully.
          --filburt1, vBulletin.org/vBulletinTemplates.com moderator
          Web Design Forums.net: vB Board of the Month
          vBulletin Mail System (vBMS): webmail for your forum users

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          • #6
            Originally posted by filburt1
            Given that MS has stopped new development for a "standalone" version of IE, it's not surprising that actively developed browsers like Mozilla are taking the lead.

            I do find it frustrating that IE doesn't render semitransparent parts of PNGs correctly but there are ways around it, thankfully.
            Mozilla has been in the lead since it passed 0.7, imo

            What do you mean by "ways around it" ? Aside of not using transparency in PNG's, of course....

            Comment


            • #7
              You can use some proprietary MS CSS filters to get it to work, which, by the nature of HTML and CSS, will be ignored by other browsers.

              Workaround: http://www.webdesignforums.net/showt...3321#post63321

              FWIW, I do like Mozilla quite a bit, but until it's as tightly integrated with the shell and as near-instantaneous to launch as IE, I'll stick with my bugs and security holes.
              --filburt1, vBulletin.org/vBulletinTemplates.com moderator
              Web Design Forums.net: vB Board of the Month
              vBulletin Mail System (vBMS): webmail for your forum users

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by filburt1
                You can use some proprietary MS CSS filters to get it to work, which, by the nature of HTML and CSS, will be ignored by other browsers.

                Workaround: http://www.webdesignforums.net/showt...3321#post63321

                FWIW, I do like Mozilla quite a bit, but until it's as tightly integrated with the shell and as near-instantaneous to launch as IE, I'll stick with my bugs and security holes.

                Why on Earth would you want it integrated with the Shell? That makes it completely unportable and requires extremely different methods of putting it together, making speedy, progressive development virtually impossible.

                And as for launching speeds, here some comparisons that apply to my workmachine:

                New IE: 1.5 seconds
                New Mozi: 2.8 seconds
                New Mozi Tab (which stands equal to a new IE): 0.1 seconds

                Since a Mozilla tab stands equal to opening a new IE, I will not recognize IE as being faster in using, launch-wise.

                Also: bookmark groups. Try this situation in both IE as well as Mozi:

                You have 20 bookmarks and want each of them opened in their own window.

                Time it takes in IE: good lord I wouldn't even begin such an undertaking, sorry!
                Time it takes in Mozilla: one click. 0.2 seconds later they are all loading their pages nicely.


                Now try this situation:

                You go to your favorite forum again after not having been there a little while, open up the forumdisplay and you see 20 threads you want to read.

                In IE: either you go through 20 pages in one window, taking a looong time as you'll constantly have to wait for pageloads, or you open 20 new windows by shift-clicking all the threads you want to read. Nice taskbar (or in XP, nice bunch of sub-taskbar items!)
                In Mozilla┬╣: you middleclick all your threads, and start reading the first one about 5 seconds after you've started with the first click (excluding any extra loading time if you're on a slow connection etc.). By the time you're done reading the first page, all other 19 tabs are ready for you and you'll not be waiting for any page load or anything. Also, your taskbar hasn't been used additionally for anything, so you can access each page with only one click.


                ┬╣ - depending on your setting, this could be slightly different, ctrl-click or middle-click etc.


                A new IE instance may load up faster than a whole new Mozilla instance, but a new Mozi tab loads up faster than any IE instance, and in using the browser to browse the 'Net, Mozilla is clearly faster in common situations. So what is that launch speed bonus worth to you when you lose many minutes on everything else?

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                • #9
                  Well, 1.5 seconds is faster than 2.8 seconds

                  I'm not saying IE is better. I'm saying it's better for me given those two situations. On Windows, I have no interest in tabs because I already have the taskbar (on Macs, it's very important to me, but I use Safari because my iBook can't handle Mozilla). I prefer to close all browser windows, especially when gaming, so keeping it up would be annoying.

                  I like the shell integration just so I can drag favorites around and such.
                  --filburt1, vBulletin.org/vBulletinTemplates.com moderator
                  Web Design Forums.net: vB Board of the Month
                  vBulletin Mail System (vBMS): webmail for your forum users

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I use IE6, although I realize Firebird beats it hands down. Force of habit...

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Opening IE on my computer takes 0.1 seconds and mozilla takes about 5 seconds. Then again I have a 2.4GHz P4 and don't use quick launch.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Oh, and that workaround for PNG transparency scares me. That is so not how it should be... *shudders*
                        And it doesn't make up for the lack of full CSS support, 1 and 2. Esp. about CSS1 that is a disgrace to MS:

                        Cascading Style Sheets, level 1 (CSS1) became a W3C Recommendation in December 1996.
                        It has been finalized since 1996 and still they couldn't implement it fully.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          BTW, before I keep posting, you do realize that I won't be changing browsers until those two issues are improved. Just to prevent incessant opinion pushing

                          Speaking of CSS, try implementing it in NS4, even CSS1. I printed out at work a 38-page list of NS4 CSS bugs. Some of them are just hilarious, like if an image isn't found, it'll just render a black square right over your text.
                          --filburt1, vBulletin.org/vBulletinTemplates.com moderator
                          Web Design Forums.net: vB Board of the Month
                          vBulletin Mail System (vBMS): webmail for your forum users

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by filburt1
                            Well, 1.5 seconds is faster than 2.8 seconds

                            I'm not saying IE is better. I'm saying it's better for me given those two situations. On Windows, I have no interest in tabs because I already have the taskbar (on Macs, it's very important to me, but I use Safari because my iBook can't handle Mozilla). I prefer to close all browser windows, especially when gaming, so keeping it up would be annoying.

                            I like the shell integration just so I can drag favorites around and such.
                            1.5 seconds is, however, not faster than 0.1 seconds for a Mozi tab, which is how you actually should compare it. What's important is that you have a new window to browse in, to type a URL in, and thus, a Mozi tab stands equal to an IE instance. And the Mozi tab takes 0.1 seconds, versus 1.5 for IE.

                            Okay, I don't know about you, but after having used Mozi since version 0.9 I've found myself using up to 40 tabs at any point, at the same time. Add to those my mail, photoshop, php editor and putty windows and my taskbar feels cluttered as it is with those 8~ tabs (I usually have 2 or 3 Mozi instances because I keep my subjects of tabs separated). I don't want my taskbar any more cluttered, nor do I want a push-up (opposite of drop-down ^_^) menu for a taskbar item after which I have to go through 20 items to search for where it put the one I want.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by filburt1
                              BTW, before I keep posting, you do realize that I won't be changing browsers until those two issues are improved. Just to prevent incessant opinion pushing

                              Speaking of CSS, try implementing it in NS4, even CSS1. I printed out at work a 38-page list of NS4 CSS bugs. Some of them are just hilarious, like if an image isn't found, it'll just render a black square right over your text.
                              I know, but I'm not gonna stop explaining that your `issues` don't really make sense. In every essential aspect, Mozilla is a lot faster, and for the sake of progress, shell-integration is the worst idea.


                              And I fail to see the relevance of NS4 and CSS. NS4 was crappy at HTML as well, and moreover, it is EXTREMELY OLD. IE6 with the latest patches is rather new, _especially_ in comparison to NS4. Something that is so much newer should not be about as bad, or sometimes worse, if you ask me. Yet IE is.

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