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  • #31
    Originally posted by nuno
    Did you know that the Mayans calendar mysteriously ends at 2012? Why did the Mayans consider year 3113 B. C. as their year zero?
    ...
    We do not know, but something happened, that's for sure.
    I'm sure something happened in that year. And I'm sure they had their reasons for ending the calendar in 2012. They also believed that their god Quetzalcoatl would return every 52 years. (Have you heard this story?)

    Turns out they thought Cortez was the god himself, so they let him in and dropped their guard for him. Cortez took advantage. He stole all their gold, and slaughtered them all. And it wouldn't have happened if they hadn't been so superstitious.
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    • #32
      Originally posted by bigmattyh
      And it wouldn't have happened if they hadn't been so superstitious.
      Which leads you to think...

      Almost all wars are faught for one or more of the following reasons:
      1. Greed (Gold/Land/Status/Power/etc.)
      2. Religion
      3. Politics (Government/Rights/etc.)
      :)

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      • #33
        Probability is beyond the intellectual scope of the gullible. They have no fixed beliefs -- or worse, they'll believe anything -- so they have no concept of what is probable and what is not.
        Perhaps. Although it's more likely that a gulliable person does have fixed beleifs and a concept of what probability is, however their reasoning faculties are insufficient, thus their ability to discern what's probable and not is not as keen as yours or mine. Someone with no fixed beliefs is rather uncommon, and would be prone to such erratic behavior that they'd be tossed into a psyciatric ward.
        I'm not going to invest in that possiblity, though, because the chances are so remote of that ever happening.
        Possibly. I doubt I'd burst into flames either, and I wouldn't invest time in examining the probability in that simply because my interrests lay elsewhere. However, does that mean that the person who does is one of the gulliable types, or rather is that person interrested in fully studying something that isn't as grand a science as astronomy or nuclear physics?
        We don't live on a chalkboard. We don't live in a textbook. Whether it is possible for my bank account to suddenly have $10,000,000 in it without me doing anything is academic and utterly pointless. That's close-minded, sure, but it isn't "one step away from burning people at the stake." (What a ridiculous thing to say.)
        Utterly pointless until extraordinary sums of money appear in your bank account, and even less pointless when they dissapear from your bank account. Having had both situations happen to me several times with 3 differant banks, I can offer testimony to how it's far from an academic question and indeed possible and probable And no, I don't beleive it's a ridiculous thing to say. I think it's quite appropriate to attribute a minor discrimination towards a greater one as the greater ones start out as minor ones. I think this specific lesser discrimintation unwarrented.
        For instance, my mind is closed to the possibility of me killing you because you disagree with me. Thankfully, most people think like me on this matter
        I know, and I was up for a good chase too
        We have to live our lives based on reality. And part of reality is acknowledging things for what they are
        No disagreement there. Rather my disagreement comes from the rest of that paragraph. The "acknowledging" in that is assumption. Assumptions are not reality. You beleive the knife to be sharp, but you don't know that for certain until you test it. Only after testing it can one reasonably say that he or she knows beyond a doubt. I beleive the stove to be hot. From feeling the warmth radiating from the stove, I assume it's hot from an experience I had touching red-hot metal... it burned like a mutha. Can I say beyond any doubt that the stove will likewise burn if I touch it? No. I could touch it and in fact not be burned if the oven is at a rather low temperature or the outer metal doesn't conduct warmth very well.
        Ask someone who says he believes that anything is possible if they'd be willing to bet their life on that assertion. Tell him that if he stabs himself, the knife will disintegrate into its component atoms on contact. He won't do it because he knows that his life depends on his evaluation of reality as it is -- not as it could be in his imagination.

        Doubt does not equal fact. I happen to beleive it's possible for a knife to crumble on impact (although not necesarily itno component atoms, but atomic theory is another matter of discussion perhaps). I beleive it's quite probable too in fact. But will I indeed stab myself because I beleive such? No. Does that prove your assertation about "reality and fantasy"? No. I do not stab myself because while I have seen knives so rusted and badly made as to break before even being able to puncture skin, I also beleive in the possibility and probability that the knife could also be made of sound construction. Stabbing myself would be a gamble to which outcome would happen, and as the one outcome would result in unnecesary pain and lost of blood, I wisely pass. This, again, doesn't render the one probability not-reality, a fantasy, a fabrication. It's rather just considering ALL probabilities and excersizing caution.
        Just because you imagine a thing doesn't mean that it is true. If you're going to believe in something, have evidence to back it up. Otherwise you're basing your world view on fantasies that have no bearing on the real world that you live in.
        Likewise could be said for something you cannot imagine. If I beleive that super-sonic travel is unimaginable, I would have to produce evidence to such, else it would be said I'm basing my world view on fantasy rather than reality. Of course, you see how saying super-sonic travel is impossible is silly with jets travelling at mach speeds... however, 100 years ago, that was very much the "correct real world view".
        You can be open-minded about it and have your feet firmly planted in reality.
        Thank you for agreeing with me, although by the context of that entire paragraph, it seems you might have intended to write "You can't be open..."
        If life really did exist on Mars, it would be wonderful to prove -- but showing altered photos of outlines of rocks on Mars, and claiming that there's a NASA coverup of the "truth" isn't the way to go about it.
        Definately not. Proving one theory (life on mars) with another (NASA covers up the truth about life on mars) is a nice working definition of circular logic.

        The point is: there's just not enough evidence to support the claim. Making the claim so enthusiastically with such slim support is detrimental to the very concept of science and the scientific method.
        No, it's not detrimental to science. It's detrimental when the claim is touted as fact rather than theory. Richard Hoagland claiming his theory of fact is crackpot science. But making an enthusiastic claim about a theory that has little evidence is not bad science at all. That the person making the claim changes his or her theory when new evidence is presented is also not bad science, in fact, quite the opposite that is the very core of modern scientific method. Scientists who hold their theories inexorably in the face of contradictory evidence are idiots. Those that adjust their theories to accomodate the new bits of evidence offered are refining those theories to reflect reality.
        Face on mars? City on mars? Evidence so far has dismissed the claim that it's a big humanlike face. Further evidence may show it to be half-man/half-lion. I won't look at photoshop enhancements to sway my opinion either way. What will sway my opinion in one way or another is yet another set of even clearer photographs, or better yet, send me to mars for a first hand look
        It muddies the line between that which we know and that which we don't, and that serves no one. Scientific discoveries are not a whiz-bang hoopla kind of thing. They require time and patience to build a case based on whatever evidence is available. And I'm not seeing that from these people.
        I agree discoveries are not all whiz-bang. Some are, but not most of the more unbeleivable ones, the ones that challenge and do away with our "real world" perception of things. I do not for an instant beleive enthusiam in a theory to muddy the scientific waters. Claiming the theory is fact... that's bad science, and should some gulliable person listen to it and believe it, well, neither affects the raw evidence presented on the theory. The person making the claim would be seen as wacko by rational minded persons, although not necesarily the evidence he presents at proof of his claim. The gulliable person needs to strengthen his reasoning ability, but his ability or lack thereof to think clearly ona subject doesn't prove or disprove anything other than unsound judgements
        And it wouldn't have happened if they hadn't been so superstitious.
        Perhaps... to us they're clearly superstitious and gulliable. however, hindsight is 20/20 (sorry, couldn't think of a cliche even more cheesy). To THEM, it was a real world reality view. Reality to them was gods coming back every so often or what not, and jetplanes were fantasy unheard of. To us, even the soundest theories we have that we take to be near fact are still theory and in the future could not only be disproven, but to such an extent that people will look back on us and say "Those silly supersticious people in 20XX and their silly god of medical sciences. How could they put all those chemicals in their bodies and think they were doing good?"
        Almost all wars are faught for one or more of the following reasons:
        1. Greed (Gold/Land/Status/Power/etc.)
        2. Religion
        3. Politics (Government/Rights/etc.)
        Well... I would put Politics and Religion into foolish cause of war I tend to view priests and politicians as one in the same at times... telling me the right way to live based on their view of things, and I don't need either of them. (Well, that, and I like the simlicity of two major causes, material gain and philosophical conflicts ) I also know a guy who's not quite sure of which is the cause of the Iraq war... one day he says we're going in for oil, other days he says we're going in cuz america hates islam... I for one would like to hear about just one war where neither was the cause so I can say "Those are some real crazy mutha-****ers

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        • #34
          Be warned... my next reply will most likely be in a microsized font to save space on our screens and to avoid letting the Aliens know we're on to them and their plot to hide Planet X from us.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by bigmattyh
            I'm sure something happened in that year. And I'm sure they had their reasons for ending the calendar in 2012. They also believed that their god Quetzalcoatl would return every 52 years. (Have you heard this story?)

            Turns out they thought Cortez was the god himself, so they let him in and dropped their guard for him. Cortez took advantage. He stole all their gold, and slaughtered them all. And it wouldn't have happened if they hadn't been so superstitious.
            There you go again, forcing this discussion to focus on religion and supersticions, I'm not discussing neither, I cannot understand what's that got to do with a simple calendar.
            This is about Nibiru, and its hypothetical existence, and not about religion or aliens.
            Sumerians, Egyptians and Mayans knowledge were way too advanced for their time, whether you like it or not, and even with all our "advanced" technology, science is still perplexed, and it would still be too hard to build three pyramids like they did.
            Do you have any logical explanation for the pyramids?
            Do you believe in coincidences?
            I for one think that too many coincidences are no longer coincidence, are knowledge.
            It's just like Sir Isaac Newton and the apple, you could be hit by 1 million apples, that you would never prove that the acceleration of gravity is 9,8ms-2.
            Bottom line, we can't count on science to solve all this, there are things out there that we, humans, simply cannot understand, we live on a very vulnerable little planet called Earth, that belongs to the Solar System, to the Milky Way, to the Local Group, to the Universe, and if humans still think that in such a tremendous Universe they are alone, then they are too much jealous, we are just a grain of sand on a tremendous beach, remember that.
            Now, when I say we are not alone, what makes you think that I'm referring to aliens?
            Einstein once said "As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain. And as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality."
            You're my Prince of Peace
            And I will live my life for You

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            • #36
              Originally posted by nuno
              There you go again, forcing this discussion to focus on religion and supersticions, I'm not discussing neither, I cannot understand what's that got to do with a simple calendar.
              When you mentioned the Mayan calendar, you implied that the Mayans had advanced knowledge -- unknown to us, and our modern technology -- about "something" that would happen in the year 2012. You didn't specify what that "something" was (no one ever does).
              Montezuma let his people be slaughtered and his civilization destroyed because he put too much faith in the superstitions of his calendar. Now you want me and others to take this particular superstition seriously. That's the connection.
              This is about Nibiru, and its hypothetical existence, and not about religion or aliens.
              Well, shall we limit the scope of the discussion to just the planet itself? Because there's plenty of interesting discussion to be had there. I'd just prefer to leave out the aliens and the ancient Sumerians.
              I'm 100% open to the possibility that there is another planet out there (I would be open to it without the gravity studies). I'm also interested in how the asteroid belt formed. Was it a planet that was destroyed? Was it just a mass that never formed into a planet? Also, what about our moon? It's too big for a planet like earth to have. And also, there's evidence that it was created from the same material as earth. Was it created out of a major cataclysm -- possible the earth coming apart -- and the pieces coalesced to form the moon? Would that explain why our existing continents were all on the same side of the planet so long ago? The evidence leaves open that possibility.
              But when I talk about evidence, I'm talking about astronomy and geology among other things. If the ancient Sumerians had any kind of knowledge regarding this event -- even if we don't know how they knew it -- then maybe it could inform the direction of study. But that possibility is not proof in itself.
              I don't know if you ever said it, but I assume that you buy the theory that the knowledge of the ancient Sumerians was given to them by the Nefilim, the myserious race of giants that inhabits Nibiru. Okay, so let's assume that's correct. Who's to say that the ancient Sumerians got it right? Who's to say that the Nefilim were telling the truth? What if they just gave these seedling earthlings a new creation myth, no more factual than the earth being created in seven days? Even IF the ancient Sumerians were in contact with the Nefilim -- if they even do or ever existed -- their word isn't good enough on its own.
              Now, if we could communicate with the ancient Sumerians, they could tell us what they knew. They could show us where Nibiru was. But that, of course, is impossible. So until that happens, we've got to rely on what we know. Like I said, maybe the theory that they were an intelligent civilization can inform the direction of the search for Nibiru. But it's nothing more than mythology without anything more substantial to back it up.
              Sumerians, Egyptians and Mayans knowledge were way too advanced for their time, whether you like it or not, and even with all our "advanced" technology, science is still perplexed, and it would still be too hard to build three pyramids like they did.
              That is stretching the truth. Egyptologists have recreated the methods documented by the ancient Egyptians for building the pyramids, and it turns out that it was within their means to build them. Granted, it should have taken tens of thousands of slaves over six decades to build each one, but that still fits.
              Now, I am interested in a few things about the pyramids. One, you know of course, that from above, the great pyramids perfectly match up with the three brightest stars from Orion. The interesting thing, though, is that if the pyramids were built, say, 10,000 years ago -- not 5,000 -- the Nile would match up perfectly to the flow of the Milky Way. Which is a pretty crazy coincidence, worth investigating. I'm also interested how the Sphinx appears to have water damage, possibly from the great flood, which would also make the Sphinx about 10,000 years old too. It would also have been positioned perfectly to coincide with the rising of Leo (the lion) at the equinox -- but only if it were built 10,000 years ago.
              I'm open to those possibilities. (But it isn't because I believe that the ancient civilizations were necessarily aided by aliens. It may prove they were older and more technologically advanced than we ever thought, but that doesn't prove alien interaction.)
              Do you believe in coincidences?
              Yes. And I also believe people see connections where there are none. Our brains are designed to actively seek and create connections between events that may or may not be related. Have you ever seen All of Me? It's a great, funny movie. There's a part where this ascetic shaman visits a hotel room for the first time. Just as he flushes the toilet, the phone rings. Startled, he flushes the toilet again -- and then the phone rings again. So he flushes again, this time, singing "RRRINNNGGG!!!" with the toilet flushing. He thinks the two are connected. He happened to be wrong.
              It's just like Sir Isaac Newton and the apple, you could be hit by 1 million apples, that you would never prove that the acceleration of gravity is 9,8ms-2.
              That's right. Being hit on the head with apples is not the same thing as testing the speed of gravity in a lab. Science figured that one out.
              Bottom line, we can't count on science to solve all this, there are things out there that we, humans, simply cannot understand
              I don't buy that for a second. We will not, in our lifetimes, figure out every mystery in the universe. Nor will we do it in 20 lifetimes or a thousand. We build on what we know, generation after generation. In fifty years, we may have colonized the moon. In another 200 years, we may be on other solar systems. But it's done through scientific inquiry, scientific study. Which, of course, requires some imagination. But imagination doesn't connect the dots from point A to point Z. The Wright brothers wanted to fly -- which had never been done before in their lifetimes -- and they made a study of how to do it. A study that didn't rely on the drawings of Leonardo da Vinci or the drawings of ancient "winged discs" (as the Sumerians have). They studied and found an anwer.
              We understand more every year. We are saving lives and building things with our application of that knowledge that were never possible before. And it's because we know, fundamentally, that it is possible to understand. We accept that we won't know it all, but we most certainly do not give up the effort to try to do so.
              if humans still think that in such a tremendous Universe they are alone, then they are too much jealous, we are just a grain of sand on a tremendous beach, remember that.
              I am sure that there are other forms of intelligent life in the universe, certainly. The issue is whether we've seen evidence of it. Elijah seeing a "wheel in a wheel" in the Bible is not evidence of his seeing a UFO. Because, as you know, it's perfectly possible -- and more likely -- to see those kinds of things in dreams or hallucinations.
              But this is where I believe you go wrong: You attribute these things that are difficult to understand -- such as the pyramids -- to aliens, or "ancient knowledge" or something else whose explanation is also out of reach of our understanding. It's the new mythology. You don't understand how these things come to be so you invent an explanation and stretch the facts to fit our theory. You might be right in the end -- there might be aliens, and the ancient civilizations might be older and more advanced than we currently think -- but you certainly aren't getting to the truth via any kind of solid reasoning process. And in that regard, it's just the same as religion or magic or any other mystical explanation.
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              • #37
                Originally posted by bigmattyh
                [size=2]When you mentioned the Mayan calendar, you implied that the Mayans had advanced knowledge --
                unknown to us, and our modern technology -- about "something" that would happen in the year 2012.
                You didn't specify what that "something" was (no one ever does).
                And I never will, but yet again, you simply do not want to accept that they were too advanced for their time, and there's
                nothing I can do about it, sorry.
                Originally posted by bigmattyh
                [size=2]
                Montezuma let his people be slaughtered and his civilization destroyed because he put too much faith in the superstitions
                of
                his calendar. Now you want me and others to take this particular superstition seriously. That's the connection.
                What connection? Christ, there you go again, talking about faith and superstitions......
                Originally posted by bigmattyh
                [size=2]
                Well, shall we limit the scope of the discussion to just the planet itself? Because there's plenty of interesting
                discussion to be had there. I'd just prefer to leave out the aliens and the ancient Sumerians.
                Okay, I agree, let's see how you behave from now on.
                Originally posted by bigmattyh
                [size=2]
                I'm 100% open to the possibility that there is another planet out there (I would be open to it without the gravity
                studies). I'm also interested in how the asteroid belt formed. Was it a planet that was destroyed? Was it just a mass
                that never formed into a planet? Also, what about our moon? It's too big for a planet like earth to have. And also,
                there's evidence that it was created from the same material as earth. Was it created out of a major cataclysm -- possible
                the earth coming apart -- and the pieces coalesced to form the moon? Would that explain why our existing continents were
                all on the same side of the planet so long ago? The evidence leaves open that possibility.
                But when I talk about evidence, I'm talking about astronomy and geology among other things. If the ancient Sumerians had
                any kind of knowledge regarding this event -- even if we don't know how they knew it -- then maybe it could inform the
                direction of study. But that possibility is not proof in itself.
                I already know you are a very skeptical person, and there's nothing wrong about it, but then again, what do you believe
                in after all?
                Originally posted by bigmattyh
                [size=2]
                I don't know if you ever said it, but I assume that you buy the theory that the knowledge of the ancient Sumerians was
                given to them by the Nefilim, the myserious race of giants that inhabits Nibiru. Okay, so let's assume that's correct.
                Let's not assume anything, I've never said anything like that, YOU said it.
                Originally posted by bigmattyh
                [size=2]
                Who's to say that the ancient Sumerians got it right? Who's to say that the Nefilim were telling the truth?
                What if they just gave these seedling earthlings a new creation myth, no more factual than the earth being created in
                seven days? Even IF the ancient Sumerians were in contact with the Nefilim -- if they even do or ever existed --
                their word isn't good enough on its own.
                Who's to say that the ancient Sumerians got it wrong?You?
                Originally posted by bigmattyh
                [size=2]
                Now, if we could communicate with the ancient Sumerians, they could tell us what they knew.
                They could show us where Nibiru was. But that, of course, is impossible. So until that happens, we've got to rely on
                what we know. Like I said, maybe the theory that they were an intelligent civilization can inform the direction of the
                search for Nibiru. But it's nothing more than mythology without anything more substantial to back it up.
                If we could communicate with them, then, most probably, you would call them liars.
                That's not mythology, it is proven by science that Earth is afected from time to time by some major catastrophe, and it could
                be related with the hypotethical Niburu.
                There's a difference between hypotethical and mythological, for instance, an Unicorn belongs to the mythological world.
                Originally posted by bigmattyh
                [size=2]
                Egyptologists have recreated the methods documented by the ancient Egyptians for building the pyramids, and it turns out
                that it was within their means to build them. Granted, it should have taken tens of thousands of slaves over six decades
                to build each one, but that still fits.
                Not true, why don't they build another one then?
                Originally posted by bigmattyh
                [size=2]
                Now, I am interested in a few things about the pyramids. One, you know of course, that from above, the great pyramids
                perfectly match up with the three brightest stars from Orion. The interesting thing, though, is that if the pyramids
                were built, say, 10,000 years ago -- not 5,000 -- the Nile would match up perfectly to the flow of the Milky Way.
                Which is a pretty crazy coincidence, worth investigating.
                No, don't tell me, let me guess, it's a coincidence?If this is a coincidence, why investigate?Case closed.
                You probably want to work for the Feds.
                Tell me something, is life on Earth a coincidence?
                Originally posted by bigmattyh
                [size=2]
                I'm open to those possibilities. (But it isn't because I believe that the ancient civilizations were necessarily aided
                by aliens. It may prove they were older and more technologically advanced than we ever thought, but that doesn't prove
                alien interaction.)
                I agree, but where did they get all that knowledge?Do you have any suggestion?
                Originally posted by bigmattyh
                [size=2]
                That's right. Being hit on the head with apples is not the same thing as testing the speed of gravity in a lab.
                Oooh, Newton had a lab, how do you know that?
                Originally posted by bigmattyh
                [size=2]
                Science figured that one out.
                No, Newton figured that out, then science approved it.
                Originally posted by bigmattyh
                [size=2]
                We will not, in our lifetimes, figure out every mystery in the universe. Nor will we do it in 20 lifetimes or a thousand.
                We build on what we know, generation after generation. In fifty years, we may have colonized the moon. In another 200
                years, we may be on other solar systems. But it's done through scientific inquiry, scientific study.
                Just watch some sci-fi movies, there's plenty of imagination there.
                We will never ever reach another solar system, that's a fact.
                Do you know what 15 light years mean?
                It means that if you travel at the speed of light for fifteen years, only then you'll get there, and then another fifteen to come back, well, that makes thirty, you are getting old and only one trip, do you find this logical? I don't, there's a reason for such huge distances between planets, stars, galaxies, etc.
                We are not supposed to go there, if GOD wanted us to fly, He would have gave us wings.
                Originally posted by bigmattyh
                [size=2]
                We understand more every year. We are saving lives and building things with our application of that knowledge that were
                never possible before. And it's because we know, fundamentally, that it is possible to understand. We accept that we
                won't know it all, but we most certainly do not give up the effort to try to do so.
                No we don't, we just think we do.
                We are saving lives?What about the thousand that starve to death? Is this our great technology?Give me a break, the world is dying, we do not deserve anything from this Earth, we are selfish little people with a lot to learn.
                The Earth was already here when we arrived, and I can assure you that it will remain here after we leave, and it will not miss us.
                Originally posted by bigmattyh
                [size=2]
                I am sure that there are other forms of intelligent life in the universe, certainly. The issue is whether we've seen evidence of it. Elijah seeing a "wheel in a wheel" in the Bible is not evidence of his seeing a UFO.
                That word, UFO, i do not understand what it is, well, it means Unidentified Flying Object, but we all know that usually is rounded, with a lot of lights, it's fast as hell, and greyish, damn, pretty good damn job for UnIdentified, don't you think?
                Originally posted by bigmattyh
                [size=2]
                But this is where I believe you go wrong: You attribute these things that are difficult to understand -- such as the pyramids -- to aliens,
                No, i've never said that.
                Originally posted by bigmattyh
                [size=2]
                You don't understand how these things come to be so you invent an explanation and stretch the facts to fit our theory.
                Then I presume you do understand them, please, be my guest, explain them to me, I will be delighted.
                Originally posted by bigmattyh
                [size=2]
                You might be right in the end -- there might be aliens, and the ancient civilizations might be older and more advanced than we currently think
                I've never said anything about aliens, notice the thread title, it's Nibiru, not aliens, it's you that keep bringing it up.
                Last edited by nuno; Tue 11th Mar '03, 10:59am.
                You're my Prince of Peace
                And I will live my life for You

                Comment


                • #38
                  This is getting frustrating. I've tried to reply four times, and a stupid bug in IE keeps crashing my browser. I've wasted 1.5 hours in trying to reply to this message.

                  I'm going to cut out the lengthy explanation of my beliefs -- which you asked for -- and cut right to the pithy responses to your quotes.
                  Originally posted by nuno
                  If we could communicate with them, then, most probably, you would call them liars.
                  That's a terribly insulting thing to say. I don't go around calling people liars, thanks. If I could talk to the ancient Sumerians, I would like to ask them what they knew, and more importantly, I'd try to figure out how they came by their information. It's just like if I called you on the phone and told you that I had a great bridge to sell you in New York -- you'd have to be a fool just to take my word for it. You'd follow up. You'd do a little due diligence to see if I had what I said I had. That's just prudent behavior.
                  That's not mythology, it is proven by science that Earth is afected from time to time by some major catastrophe, and it could be related with the hypotethical Niburu.
                  As I wrote before, I don't have a problem with the possibility of another planet in the solar system, or that it may have collided with earth many billions of years ago. As I said, I think this possibility is worth investigating.
                  But forget the Nefilim -- the mystical, higher race of creatures that supposedly live on Nibiru, who supposedly sowed the seeds of humanity on earth through DNA, and who continue to watch out for their "children", returning every 3600 years to bestow a gift of technology upon them. As I said, I think that's pure mythology -- fantasy, not reality -- no matter how real the possibility of a planet X might be.
                  You probably want to work for the Feds.
                  Where have I indicated a strong love of government, or desire to work for it? I don't know where you're getting this, but it's starting to sound like we're having two different conversations.
                  We will never ever reach another solar system, that's a fact.
                  I think you just proved my implication that you have no fixed set of beliefs about the world. You have argued that we ought to keep our minds open about the possibilities that are out there -- yet, you're absolutely certain that humanity will never reach another solar system? "if GOD wanted us to fly, He would have gave us wings." Yet we fly (cheaply, I might add). We do so because some very intelligent and industrious people were convinced that flight was possible and made every effort to understand it and then put it into action. They eventually succeeded in their efforts. As long as there are people like them in the world, who constantly seek to push back the envelope of understanding, we will one day find ourselves not just on one other solar system, but hundreds.
                  Give me a break, the world is dying, we do not deserve anything from this Earth, we are selfish little people with a lot to learn. The Earth was already here when we arrived, and I can assure you that it will remain here after we leave, and it will not miss us.
                  The earth will not miss us because it is incapable of missing anything. We, on the other hand, are sentient creatures who have the ability and the initiative to take what we are given and make more out of it. To make lumber and bricks out of trees and mud, to build a house; or to channel subatomic particles into a stream that powers circuits mined from rare materials so that we can calculate amazingly large sums to precision. We have made more out of this planet than was given to us. This is the heart of virtue -- not the guilt-ridden vice that you clearly think it is.

                  We live longer today than ever before. Fewer people starve and die of diseases than ever before. We can literally make the blind see and the deaf hear again. And this is done because we actively have sought to improve upon the lot we have been given. We have actively sought ways to make our farms more productive, just as we have actively sought to understand disease and cancer so that we can effectively fight them and prolong our lives. We do this because we love our lives and we take pleasure in making our lives and others' better. That is human nature, and it has continued to prevail for all the ills in the world -- life is much better today than it ever has been, ever.
                  Then I presume you do understand them, please, be my guest, explain them to me, I will be delighted.
                  No, as I've said, I don't understand these things. But what I refuse to do is to invent an explanation that is utterly unprovable as a substitute for genuine understanding.
                  Last edited by bigmattyh; Wed 12th Mar '03, 12:56am.
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