The Presidential Results!

[JimF]

wajones, happy veterans day, and a much deserved thank you .


Oh yeah, that reminds me. I think it's total BS that the overseas military absentee ballots are the last to be counted. The way I feel, these people are serving their country by putting their lives on the line for us. Even though it's a time of peace, tragedy can happen (USS Cole). I think the ballots of these people should be counted first and foremost. And only after they have voted, then the regular citizen's ballots should be tallied and applied.

I'm not a veteran, I just have a lot of respect for those who are, or are currently serving the country to maintain our rights.

wajones, thanks again.


-jim

[SonnetCelestial]

wajones..

exactly. I think they ARE alive. I do not doubt the fact that when the sperm and egg unite that it creates a life form. You are right in feeling that it is horrible to see a baby being killed because if it looks like an infant and is after 7 months old, it most likely can feel pain. THAT is wrong and unless it is rape, incest, to save the mothers life or the mother was inexperienced I feel it should be a very rare incident indeed.

In general before the second trimester, the capacity to feel pain, to make a conscious movement (ie to kick because the baby wants to be known) is not developed and most likely not there. If I (heaven forbid) ever had to abort a child I would do so within the first month of discovering I was pregnant (in other words as soon as possible). I wouldn't wait on purpose to the last minute and I can tell I would be extremely paranoid if I had any suspicion I was pregnant. Unless it was an immaculate conception, I doubt any women would not suspect they were pregnant. That is why I support abortion but not late abortion without exceptions.

I love babies as much as the next woman, but when a) I cannot take care of it due to funding b) the contraception did not work c) my husband does not support having a child d) it's very very early (ie found out I was pregnant as soon as possible) I WANT my choice to say no and not have mr. president slap me in the face and say "HAHA sucks to be you". I won't even go through the turmoil of explaining to my family if, for instance I turn the word husband into fiance. Though I come from a very conservative background, premarital escapades with the one man I love is possible as long as it's protected. I am not christian although I believe in god and jesus (does that make sense?) and to the very best of my ability I try to respect those around me. But I also believe that each person can have his/her own opinion despite how deepseatedly opposed I am to that belief. Unfortunately I cannot always act calmly when someone does clinch on my freedom to believe what I deem is right. To impose total abstainence is too religious an act to force upon society. AGAIN, congress is imposing our own beliefs onto the populace and that is wrong. Plain wrong.

I now support Gore all the way (wish I voted cuz I didn't think I would make a difference. stupid stupid me even if i'm not a political buff). I do hope that by the miracle of goodness that gore wins so that I don't have to move to another country (and yes I am joking sorta).

I know the mommy's and daddys (including my own parents) look at bush and think he's got some good ideas. But like what JimF said, we are not living in an idealistic world. To make sex as illegal as drugs is asking for some serious trouble. It's fun (from what I've heard), it's a natural instinctive act, and to illegalize it is, I THINK the DUMBEST move by a president. And the scarey thing is...it just might happen!!!

I'm sorry... I think bush crossed the line on this one and I have to say that if he becomes president, I seriously would consider going to another place to see from afar how america weathers under his rule.

BTW I do appreciate your opinions, don't close this thread on account of my beliefs and no I am not angry just emotionally stirred up by the ballots. I of course would ask the same courtesy and not be called names and what not since I would most likely not pay attention towards those type of responses. This is supposed to be a discussion between adults (or mature teens) and of course I hope it stays that way.

[Edited by SonnetCelestial on 11-10-2000 at 03:38 PM]

[SonnetCelestial]

oops and yes thanks for putting your life on the line for us.

Tis very much appreciated!

[wajones]

Thank All, for the Veterans day acknowledgement. I too wish to thank all those Veterans out there that have served our country and make this very discussion possible.

[Edited by wajones on 11-10-2000 at 03:18 PM]

[wajones]

SonnetCelestial

The babies I was talking about were less than 7 months in the womb. In fact many babies are born that are less that 7 months along. While all do not survive, many do and I would just like to see women to consider adoption. I have an adopted daughter and have had 32 foster children. There are so many families out there that want children.

I am not saddened for the children because I believe they were taken to their god before the age of accountability. I also feel the un-knowlegable young women are un-accountable, because the blame is on the shoulders of those that taught her wrong.

That's not directed towards you or any specific person.

[SonnetCelestial]

I have never gone through a pregnancy so of course I'm not going to act like an expert on the stages we go through. However if let's say I was pregnant and it was because of rape, I myself would not willingly allow my child get through to such a late stage of development. But (I speak for myself not for others) if that baby has developd a brain and a heartbeat I will not abort based on my beliefs and ask to receive no publicity or overhyped THANKS from anyone. In addition the ONLY other people whom I believe should truly deserve an opinion on this situation are those who have been raped also and whom are close to the victims themselves (ie parents, friends, etc).

In any case, I agree with you on that extent and yes I when I am a mother would not want my child to be aborted when I can see little hands, a brain, and little feet. I only want it when the development has not reached that far (less than a month) and if what I mentioned in my other post holds true.

<digressing from a reply to a very personal account>
Welp, you might think I'm a bit extremist on this topic since I've rarely been so vocal on the vb forums. There's a reason for that and it's because I have been inches away from being physical raped. Let me tell you, it's nothing all that media **** can reproduce and it deserves much more than just some gentle condoling from anyone. It deserves respect, a great amount of privacy, and of course help WHEN asked.

There is a great deal of shame, turmoil and fear when a woman deals with unplanned pregnancy so don't ever EVER use a pregnant women, ESPECIALLY if they were rape victims as a soap box for your beliefs because if people do, people like me will rip them apart. I've seen sites that do that and after I ream the webmaster pounding in every inch of smoldering fact into their skul I usually don't get a reply. Fancy that!

So as long as you respect others and respect pregnant women, you can say whatever you believe!

Cheers!

[Edited by SonnetCelestial on 11-10-2000 at 04:29 PM]

[wajones]

Originally posted by SonnetCelestial
I have never gone through a pregnancy so of course I'm not going to act like an expert on the stages we go through. However if let's say I was pregnant and it was because of ,

I as a man am truly sorry for any woman that has suffered such a crime as rape or attempted rape. I think that is a disgrace beyond anything I can think of, I will leave to your imagination what I would propose doing to such an individual that commited such a crime. As I stated previously I believe in such cases of rape, incest or medical reasons only the mother has the right to decide. I really can't justify why any proclaimed Christian/God fearing person would think otherwise. It's the obortion of convienience most people that I know and associate with are against. I do know of the extremes and the crule people on both sides. Unfortunately some of the extreme people are quite suspect in my opinion... you know the one's that fan the flames on both side's. They do not want this settled one way or the other, if it could ever be settled.

This is not a soap box, it's an appology for what happened to you and so many other women, it just so happens those are my beliefs and I stand by them. I do not go around preaching "pro-life", first I wouldn't want to be the one to cast stones. Just discussing, not condemning anyone. Since I am a father I do feel I have a right to speak up on the issue condemning those that would carry out such a crime as rape. I have a 15 year old daughter, believe me, I worry every day.

I really hate using "pro-life" I really don't want to be confused with their point of view.

[Edited by wajones on 11-10-2000 at 05:55 PM]

[SonnetCelestial]

awww, that's fine wajones! I completely do not think you're an extremist and sometimes I do feel that the terms prochoice and prolife are way too stereotyped.

I do certainly feel angry when some women abuses her choice to abort and just ups and thinks it's a convenient way of disposing a child. If you're lazy and not willing to accept the responsibilty of contraception then that's your own fault. Besides abortions are very expensive (at least $200) and can be quite painful. Unless you are masochistic you most likely would not want to go through abortion if you don't have to.

Eh... I dunno. I guess I wish that people were more open about this so teens won't make this out at something "mommy and daddy" doesn't want you to do. In other words, something you can do to rebel against the evil parents. :P

[Mage]

Re: Re:

Originally posted by WebStyles
And when a woman gets raped or is an incest victim? I suppose that would be her fault as well? The government has no right to make that decision for anyone.

Oh, so it was the baby's fault. I see.

[Mage]

Re: Re: Re: to webstyles and JimF

Originally posted by JimF
[BAnd you know, if Abortion is made to be illegal, it will still happen anyway. But it will happen in back allies, with coathangers instead of at a clinic with a licensed physician. Which would in turn put the MOTHER at risk. So prohibiting abortion would just be killing the mothers. And don't you dare say that that's ludicrous, because people drank during prohibition, and they use drugs now. And lord knows if the drugs people do now were controlled by the government like liquor is, there wouldn't be half as many drug-related deaths.[/B]

Funny. I knew you were going to go for legalizing drugs the moment I started reading your message...

Well, I guess making homocide illegal isn't working out either. It's still happening. Maybe if we legalized it and set up standards, we'd be better off. Rules like in the old days. 7 paces and the like. At least that way both sides have an even chance, the families have a chance to say goodbye, and the people have a chance to get their affairs in order ahead of time.

[Mage]

Originally posted by JimF
Seriously, if a baby can be extraced from the mother, and not survive on its own, then by no means is that ending a life - it's just not starting one. There's a huge difference. If the baby can live on its own after being taken out, than it is TOO LATE IN THE PREGNENCY, and that is KILLING the baby.

Oh please. For one thing, if the baby is actually board, and you just snip the cord and leave it there, it isn't very well going to survive on its own either. Guess that woman that did that should be let free, as well as the mother that birthed into a airport toilet and took off. If it was life, it would've survived.

But the real reason I wanted to answer was that if you don't want the life to be born, then don't have unprotected sex. And don't give me the "rape and incest" routine. That's a fractional percent of the abortions that take place.

[Mage]

Originally posted by JimF
Oh yeah, that reminds me. I think it's total BS that the overseas military absentee ballots are the last to be counted. The way I feel, these people are serving their country by putting their lives on the line for us. Even though it's a time of peace, tragedy can happen (USS Cole). I think the ballots of these people should be counted first and foremost. And only after they have voted, then the regular citizen's ballots should be tallied and applied.

I'm not a veteran, I just have a lot of respect for those who are, or are currently serving the country to maintain our rights.

Jim, it's not like they've put all the military ballots in a box, sealed it, and said "Ha! We're not counting these 'til last!"

The only reason they haven't been counted yet is because they're still in the mail! The real mistake is that the laws in some states say they have to be postmarked by election day instead of in by election day. That means if you're stationed in "Middle-of-the-Jungle, S. Korea" and you send it out on election day, it's gonna be awhile before anyone sees it.

Hopefully, Florida and others will adjust the laws so the ballots have to be in by election day. I have a feeling that's just one of the many improvements we'll see for the system.

[wajones]

Re: Re: Re:

Originally posted by Mage
Oh, so it was the baby's fault. I see.

We need to lighten up, no need to be insensitive, stop throwing barbs and think about what’s being said. Be compassionate and ACT not REACT!!! If anyone really wants to say something constructive, go out and do something good. Set a good example and others will see it in you and follow.

This may sound idealistic, but it's much more effective than being insensitive.

We send our young men out to fight wars, pat them on the back when they "get a little" then we condemn the young girls that "gave a little" and got pregnant. How sick is that? No wonder they want to hide and have abortions.

[Skeptical]

I predict that if W becomes the President, he will NOT be re-elected come 2004. It's sad how people nowadays vote for a person more for their looks than their competence. John McCain is a much smarter man than Bush.

Sad... really sad...

[Zecherieh]

I predict that if Bush wins he wins again in four years by numbers comparable to 84