WTC take two

[JB007]

Glitch, the Koran encourges muslims to establish trade and friendship between all other innocent non-muslims because they're all brothers in humanity.
The problem of the "west" in general is that they don't have a clear understanding of the teachings of Islam and their purpose because of the negative media coverage.

[Steve Machol]

Actually JB, it appears that extreme fundamentalists Islamic groups also interpret the Koran differently than you. It's hard to fault the 'West' for supposed misunderstandings when Muslims don't even agree on it's teachings.

[Hooper]

Originally posted by smachol
Actually JB, it appears that extreme fundamentalists Islamic groups also interpret the Koran differently than you. It's hard to fault the 'West' for supposed misunderstandings when Muslims don't even agree on it's teachings.

Lol, how true.

[Steve Machol]

Originally posted by Hooper
Lol, how true.

In all fairness, this is true of Christians and their interpretations of the Bible as well. In the end, people believe what they want to believe and make interpretations that support those beliefs.

[Hooper]

Originally posted by smachol
In all fairness, this is true of Christians and their interpretations of the Bible as well. In the end, people believe what they want to believe and make interpretations that support those beliefs.

......................... Yeppers.


Hi Steve!
I'll need to talk to you soon. Site is nearing completion.

[OnFire]

Originally posted by JB007
Glitch, the Koran encourges muslims to establish trade and friendship between all other innocent non-muslims because they're all brothers in humanity.
The problem of the "west" in general is that they don't have a clear understanding of the teachings of Islam and their purpose because of the negative media coverage.

Does the Quran also preach anti-semitism and the destruction of an entire religion? The Nazis tried 60 years ago, and you seem to advocate the same senseless murder of Jews today my friend. Must be hard to have those wretched Jews with a sliver of land in the Middle East to call home?

The problem in the "Middle East" is there are ignorant hate-mongers like yourself running around.

Next time you need this country's help to get Saddam off your back, why don't you try calling Osama, I'm sure he'll lend a hand. Better yet, call one of the other nations of NATO, I'm sure they'll be running to your aid without the backing of the US.

[Glitch]

Originally posted by OnFire
Next time you need this country's help to get Saddam off your back, why don't you try calling Osama, I'm sure he'll lend a hand. Better yet, call one of the other nations of NATO, I'm sure they'll be running to your aid without the backing of the US.

The problem with that is that it would be impossible to continue to impose UN sanctions against sadam and prevent his aquisition of more dangerous weapons because of the personal US interest in oil purchase...

Maybe we should just go over there with the intention of conquest, they can't maintain peace over there by themselves, and our tree huggers will not turn a blind eye at the poor defenseless people... We can't give them money to learn it by themselves, we will continue to get our hands bit...

Maybe the US should utilize its ability to be imperialistic in just this one region...

Glitch

[Skeptical]

The thing we all have to wonder is, why are there countries/people that hate Americans so much? I've thought about it and have heard from many others. At first I thought it may be jealousy for us being so powerful. But soon I found out that wasn't the case at all. The cause of this hatred seems to stem from our "big brother" mentality, where our way is the right way. We want to force Christianity upon others (by way of converts going into other countries). We push other countries around into doing things our way. And I think this is kind of true. Every time I hear on tv that we're the "most powerful country on the planet" and how countries like China are bad. We try to butt into other people's businesses. This is where things go bad, because when we do that we're stepping on other people's pride. If I went to your house and told you to do this and do that, you wouldn't like it at all right? Imagine if China came to the U.S. and told us to stop spreading porn and hate speech. How would we Americans react?

Remember the old saying, "absolute power corrupts absolutely"? I think that's what the U.S. has become in some aspects. Now we're not going very far. We haven't tried to take over other countries or stuff like that, but we've been stepping on people's toes over and over again, and we don't give a damn either.

Of course the pride of Americans won't want to listen to me, but just remember, this is what they think. Or at least it's the impression I'm getting.

[thewitt]

Originally posted by Skeptical
[clip]Of course the pride of Americans won't want to listen to me, but just remember, this is what they think. Or at least it's the impression I'm getting.

I'm glad you added that last line, because there is no way you can tell us what people in other nations think of the U.S.. What you have given us here is pure speculation, and quite uninformed speculation at that.

The U.S. Government does not go about proselitizing Christianity. That is simply a misstatement of fact. Are their Christians who do so? Absolutely. Missionary work is part of every major Christian religion. The Pope - remember him, lives in the Vatican, is NOT an American - has been the major force behind spreading Christianity for centuries. Yes, for many centuries. All major religions have as a major component, the conversion of others. It's not a U.S. thing.

As for why some people hate us, it's generally because we have interferred with their agenda. Does bin Laden hate us because we support Israel? You bet. Why? Because he has an agenda that includes the total destruction of Israel, and we are interfering with that plan.

The U.S. certainly puts it's collective nose into other people's busiess. Are you saying we should stop doing that when asked? Do we do it "right" all the time? Of course we don't. Who can tell what the future will bring. When we support person A over person B, and then person A turns out to be a megalomaniac when he gets the power, we generally feel an abligation to take out person A. Should we have stayed out in the first place? The answer is, it depends.

What we generally support is a democratic form of government which values human rights, liberties and freedom. Is this wrong? We don't imperialistically thrust these views on others - we try to support those people within a county or region who have these values. We do help when the people of a nation ask for our help in supporting these views. Is that wrong? It all depends on which side you are on. "The winner writes the history" is one of the most accurate quotes I've ever read when it comes to long term world opinion.

Let me give you one current example of a world event that we will probably hear more about in the coming years. Algeria is in the middle of a civil war. This war is between Muslims and Christians. The Mulsim states decided that they would force the Christian states to live by the laws of Islam. It wasn't a religious leader who made this decision, it was a political leader. It forced a civil war, started by a group called the Islamic Salvation Army. The Christians who are in power in Algeria were quite willing to live together with the Muslims, in peace, each practicing their own religion. A separation of church and state. A small group of radical Islamists, who believe that everyone should live their lives as laid out in the Qur'an, disapproved and starting killing Christians who would not live by the Qur'an.

We are supporting both sides in the war with humanitarian aid. Should we just pull out? Should we support the "stronger side" or the "weaker side" depending on who we think will win? Should we do nothing since it's just an internal matter in Algeria and we have nothing to gain by staying? Should we support the recognized government and help them crush the rebels? What if the world had done that when we declared war on Britian and ultimately won our independance?

Should we wait and see who will jump in from another country and support one side or another? What if Libia had thrown in with the rebels? They certainly share some common beliefs and they are probably tribally related being just over the Northern border? What about Morocco? When would it have been OK to get involved? What if one side started to commit attrocious human right violations? Oops, they did. How much should we get involved, and when?

Are there easy answers to questions like this? What about when one country invades another for the sake of expanding their real estate. Are all country boundaries fixed at this point in time? When would they be fixed? Is it OK for one country to annex another? Which ones? Not OK? When would we get involved? When big tries to invade little? When little tries to escape the clutches of big? Revolution? Civil war?

What about Israel and Palestine? The Palestinians believe that the Israelies are invaders. OK. When were the countries borders "fixed?" How far back do you go? The Israelies essentially - through the Zionist movement in 1897 - declared their independance from the region known as Palestine, creating an Israeli nation-state. The Egyptians and Canaanites held power in Palestine until the 14th century BC, until the Hebrews took power. Who is the rightful "owner" of Palestine? How do the British fit in? In 1922 the League of Nations gave Britian control of Palestine. How about the UN, which took control in 1947.

Who do you believe? How far back do you go? The Turks, the Romans? It's certainly easy to reach back pre-muslim. Pre-colonialism? Should we give America back to the Native Americans while we are at it (and who should decide)?

If you have the easy answers, I'd love to hear them. World politics are not simple, nor can we - as the most powerful Nation on the Earth - choose to ignore them.

-t

[bigsoccer tech]

Our site is raising money for the NY Fire Dept by raffling off autographed soccer/football jerseys from around the world. We add a new jersey every few days. Take a look: www.bigsoccer.com

[OnFire]

Originally posted by Skeptical
We want to force Christianity upon others (by way of converts going into other countries). We push other countries around into doing things our way

That is the most irresponsible and untrue statement you've made guy. Th US government does not force religion on ANYONE, including its own citizens. I really have no clue where are you getting this from, hell the US is a country of religious freedom, we have almost every practicing religion in this country in some form. Ridiculous statement.

[Glitch]

Originally posted by OnFire


That is the most irresponsible and untrue statement you've made guy. Th US government does not force religion on ANYONE, including its own citizens. I really have no clue where are you getting this from, hell the US is a country of religious freedom, we have almost every practicing religion in this country in some form. Ridiculous statement.

We do have some pretty high pressure sales people in several forms of christianity, I can remember running to put in the metallica cd when I saw the JW's comin down the street, sometimes they just don't take no for an answer... This could be happening overseas too and our gov't is taking the brunt of it...

Glitch

[Skeptical]

Originally posted by OnFire


That is the most irresponsible and untrue statement you've made guy. Th US government does not force religion on ANYONE, including its own citizens. I really have no clue where are you getting this from, hell the US is a country of religious freedom, we have almost every practicing religion in this country in some form. Ridiculous statement.

I misspoke on that one. It was late. I was sleepy. What I was trying to say was that we Americans seem to think our way is the only way. Often we're insensitive to the sovereignty of other countries. We butt into other people's business a bit too much. Much of that is for peace's sake, but I think it's time we become a bit more sensitive to others. If not we should just butt out completely. Be like Canada. When have they been threatened recently?

Christianity and freedom of speech is one such thing. To us it makes perfect sense to have this freedom to preach and convert others, but other countries might not see it that way. That is their right. When Christian missionaries go running into other countries preaching underground (with our blessing might I add), it does piss off that country's leaders.

You see, that's just my point. We think "what's wrong with people going in to another country to voice their own opinions and beliefs?" This idea of freedom of speech is so much a part of us we just don't realize other countries might not feel the same way.

One recent example: some U.S. companies are trying to set up backdoors for Chinese citizens to get around their government censorship policies on the internet. The CIA (either them or another agency) has fully supported this. But the thing is, what can that do but harm our peaceful relationship with China?

Now I am totally against censorship of any sort. That's not what I'm arguing about. I'm merely saying, every country has their own sovereignty. Let's respect that more. If not, it can only destabilize world peace, sooner or later... unless we're ready to take over the entire planet.

[thewitt]

Originally posted by Skeptical
[clip]If not we should just butt out completely. Be like Canada. When have they been threatened recently?
[clip]I'm merely saying, every country has their own sovereignty. Let's respect that more. If not, it can only destabilize world peace, sooner or later... unless we're ready to take over the entire planet.

Let's tease this one out a bit more with regards to Ossama bin Laden.

Israel and the surrounding Arab tribes from many nations known generally as the Palestinians, have a problem with ownership of a particular region. Israel, a soverign nation, asks for our help. We have a treaty with them. We help. Should we stay out? Is it OK for the Arab nations who wish to destroy Israel to do so and for us to butt out completely? Whose problem is this, exactly? If you can ferret out the rightful ownership of the region through history with the Canaanites, Israelites, Ottoman turks, Persians, Greeks, Egyptians, Syrians, Romans all having lived there and occupied what is called Palestine since the Kingdoms of Judah and Israel, you are a better man than I. Stay out of the conflict? Who will occupy Palestine next? bin Laden believes Palestine belongs to the Muslims. He hates us for supporting Israel.

Next step in the bin Laden portrait. Saddam invades Kuwait. Kuwait and Saudi Arabia ask for our help to kick him out and stabilize the region. Should we say no? It's not our fight, take care of it yourself? According to bin Laden, we defiled holy ground with this one, just by stepping on Saudi soil. Remember that Mecca is in Saudi Arabia and is the holy of holies for Islam. Now all Americans should die, children, women, military, political, it makes no difference.

Who should help Kuwait, or any other nation, when a large aggressor nation decides to expand and annex them. No one? Let the most agressive nation on the earth simply take what they want? Can you say Hitler's Germany all over again? Is that the right answer?

I'm afraid that butting out is not going to make the world a happy and safer place. We study history so that we do not repeat it. We make mistakes, but if we do not act, the world will be a much worse place - history tells us this is true.

-t

[OnFire]

All Israel wants is sovereignty Skep. Freedom to live in their country without the threat of attack from a dozen Muslim nations who believe they have the right to just TAKE the land. We helped to solidify Israel as its own state almost 60 years ago, so I don't see why our actions are confusing to people.