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  • OnFire
    replied
    Originally posted by Skeptical
    We want to force Christianity upon others (by way of converts going into other countries). We push other countries around into doing things our way
    That is the most irresponsible and untrue statement you've made guy. Th US government does not force religion on ANYONE, including its own citizens. I really have no clue where are you getting this from, hell the US is a country of religious freedom, we have almost every practicing religion in this country in some form. Ridiculous statement.

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  • bigsoccer tech
    replied
    Our site is raising money for the NY Fire Dept by raffling off autographed soccer/football jerseys from around the world. We add a new jersey every few days. Take a look: www.bigsoccer.com

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  • thewitt
    replied
    Originally posted by Skeptical
    [clip]Of course the pride of Americans won't want to listen to me, but just remember, this is what they think. Or at least it's the impression I'm getting.
    I'm glad you added that last line, because there is no way you can tell us what people in other nations think of the U.S.. What you have given us here is pure speculation, and quite uninformed speculation at that.

    The U.S. Government does not go about proselitizing Christianity. That is simply a misstatement of fact. Are their Christians who do so? Absolutely. Missionary work is part of every major Christian religion. The Pope - remember him, lives in the Vatican, is NOT an American - has been the major force behind spreading Christianity for centuries. Yes, for many centuries. All major religions have as a major component, the conversion of others. It's not a U.S. thing.

    As for why some people hate us, it's generally because we have interferred with their agenda. Does bin Laden hate us because we support Israel? You bet. Why? Because he has an agenda that includes the total destruction of Israel, and we are interfering with that plan.

    The U.S. certainly puts it's collective nose into other people's busiess. Are you saying we should stop doing that when asked? Do we do it "right" all the time? Of course we don't. Who can tell what the future will bring. When we support person A over person B, and then person A turns out to be a megalomaniac when he gets the power, we generally feel an abligation to take out person A. Should we have stayed out in the first place? The answer is, it depends.

    What we generally support is a democratic form of government which values human rights, liberties and freedom. Is this wrong? We don't imperialistically thrust these views on others - we try to support those people within a county or region who have these values. We do help when the people of a nation ask for our help in supporting these views. Is that wrong? It all depends on which side you are on. "The winner writes the history" is one of the most accurate quotes I've ever read when it comes to long term world opinion.

    Let me give you one current example of a world event that we will probably hear more about in the coming years. Algeria is in the middle of a civil war. This war is between Muslims and Christians. The Mulsim states decided that they would force the Christian states to live by the laws of Islam. It wasn't a religious leader who made this decision, it was a political leader. It forced a civil war, started by a group called the Islamic Salvation Army. The Christians who are in power in Algeria were quite willing to live together with the Muslims, in peace, each practicing their own religion. A separation of church and state. A small group of radical Islamists, who believe that everyone should live their lives as laid out in the Qur'an, disapproved and starting killing Christians who would not live by the Qur'an.

    We are supporting both sides in the war with humanitarian aid. Should we just pull out? Should we support the "stronger side" or the "weaker side" depending on who we think will win? Should we do nothing since it's just an internal matter in Algeria and we have nothing to gain by staying? Should we support the recognized government and help them crush the rebels? What if the world had done that when we declared war on Britian and ultimately won our independance?

    Should we wait and see who will jump in from another country and support one side or another? What if Libia had thrown in with the rebels? They certainly share some common beliefs and they are probably tribally related being just over the Northern border? What about Morocco? When would it have been OK to get involved? What if one side started to commit attrocious human right violations? Oops, they did. How much should we get involved, and when?

    Are there easy answers to questions like this? What about when one country invades another for the sake of expanding their real estate. Are all country boundaries fixed at this point in time? When would they be fixed? Is it OK for one country to annex another? Which ones? Not OK? When would we get involved? When big tries to invade little? When little tries to escape the clutches of big? Revolution? Civil war?

    What about Israel and Palestine? The Palestinians believe that the Israelies are invaders. OK. When were the countries borders "fixed?" How far back do you go? The Israelies essentially - through the Zionist movement in 1897 - declared their independance from the region known as Palestine, creating an Israeli nation-state. The Egyptians and Canaanites held power in Palestine until the 14th century BC, until the Hebrews took power. Who is the rightful "owner" of Palestine? How do the British fit in? In 1922 the League of Nations gave Britian control of Palestine. How about the UN, which took control in 1947.

    Who do you believe? How far back do you go? The Turks, the Romans? It's certainly easy to reach back pre-muslim. Pre-colonialism? Should we give America back to the Native Americans while we are at it (and who should decide)?

    If you have the easy answers, I'd love to hear them. World politics are not simple, nor can we - as the most powerful Nation on the Earth - choose to ignore them.

    -t
    Last edited by thewitt; Tue 25 Sep '01, 9:29am.

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  • Skeptical
    replied
    The thing we all have to wonder is, why are there countries/people that hate Americans so much? I've thought about it and have heard from many others. At first I thought it may be jealousy for us being so powerful. But soon I found out that wasn't the case at all. The cause of this hatred seems to stem from our "big brother" mentality, where our way is the right way. We want to force Christianity upon others (by way of converts going into other countries). We push other countries around into doing things our way. And I think this is kind of true. Every time I hear on tv that we're the "most powerful country on the planet" and how countries like China are bad. We try to butt into other people's businesses. This is where things go bad, because when we do that we're stepping on other people's pride. If I went to your house and told you to do this and do that, you wouldn't like it at all right? Imagine if China came to the U.S. and told us to stop spreading porn and hate speech. How would we Americans react?

    Remember the old saying, "absolute power corrupts absolutely"? I think that's what the U.S. has become in some aspects. Now we're not going very far. We haven't tried to take over other countries or stuff like that, but we've been stepping on people's toes over and over again, and we don't give a damn either.

    Of course the pride of Americans won't want to listen to me, but just remember, this is what they think. Or at least it's the impression I'm getting.

    Leave a comment:


  • Glitch
    replied
    Originally posted by OnFire
    Next time you need this country's help to get Saddam off your back, why don't you try calling Osama, I'm sure he'll lend a hand. Better yet, call one of the other nations of NATO, I'm sure they'll be running to your aid without the backing of the US.
    The problem with that is that it would be impossible to continue to impose UN sanctions against sadam and prevent his aquisition of more dangerous weapons because of the personal US interest in oil purchase...

    Maybe we should just go over there with the intention of conquest, they can't maintain peace over there by themselves, and our tree huggers will not turn a blind eye at the poor defenseless people... We can't give them money to learn it by themselves, we will continue to get our hands bit...

    Maybe the US should utilize its ability to be imperialistic in just this one region...

    Glitch

    Leave a comment:


  • OnFire
    replied
    Originally posted by JB007
    Glitch, the Koran encourges muslims to establish trade and friendship between all other innocent non-muslims because they're all brothers in humanity.
    The problem of the "west" in general is that they don't have a clear understanding of the teachings of Islam and their purpose because of the negative media coverage.
    Does the Quran also preach anti-semitism and the destruction of an entire religion? The Nazis tried 60 years ago, and you seem to advocate the same senseless murder of Jews today my friend. Must be hard to have those wretched Jews with a sliver of land in the Middle East to call home?

    The problem in the "Middle East" is there are ignorant hate-mongers like yourself running around.

    Next time you need this country's help to get Saddam off your back, why don't you try calling Osama, I'm sure he'll lend a hand. Better yet, call one of the other nations of NATO, I'm sure they'll be running to your aid without the backing of the US.

    Leave a comment:


  • Hooper
    replied
    Originally posted by smachol
    In all fairness, this is true of Christians and their interpretations of the Bible as well. In the end, people believe what they want to believe and make interpretations that support those beliefs.
    ......................... Yeppers.


    Hi Steve!
    I'll need to talk to you soon. Site is nearing completion.

    Leave a comment:


  • Steve Machol
    replied
    Originally posted by Hooper
    Lol, how true.
    In all fairness, this is true of Christians and their interpretations of the Bible as well. In the end, people believe what they want to believe and make interpretations that support those beliefs.

    Leave a comment:


  • Hooper
    replied
    Originally posted by smachol
    Actually JB, it appears that extreme fundamentalists Islamic groups also interpret the Koran differently than you. It's hard to fault the 'West' for supposed misunderstandings when Muslims don't even agree on it's teachings.

    Lol, how true.

    Leave a comment:


  • Steve Machol
    replied
    Actually JB, it appears that extreme fundamentalists Islamic groups also interpret the Koran differently than you. It's hard to fault the 'West' for supposed misunderstandings when Muslims don't even agree on it's teachings.

    Leave a comment:


  • JB007
    replied
    Glitch, the Koran encourges muslims to establish trade and friendship between all other innocent non-muslims because they're all brothers in humanity.
    The problem of the "west" in general is that they don't have a clear understanding of the teachings of Islam and their purpose because of the negative media coverage.

    Leave a comment:


  • Glitch
    replied
    Re: Apprehension sets in..

    Originally posted by SillyAlien
    Very rarely do things scare me, but as I study this more and more does the magnitude of the problem become apparent ...... and friends, it scares me.

    Horrible events! Terrible consequences ..... A little insight into how these crazy fanatics think and why this will be such a difficult fight.

    Imagine for a second the following ..... You go to visit your mother one evening and, as you approach the house, you hear screams. You run inside and, to your absolute horror, see that your beloved mother is being sexually assaulted (raped) by a stranger. At that very moment ...... what exactly would you do?

    Chances are, if you are a female you will scream as loud as you can and call for police/help. If you are male, 99.99% of you will do exactly the same thing ..... kill the bastard!

    In the eyes of these crazy religious fanatics this is exactly what they are doing : killing the bastard (the latter being the United States). For years now the very reserved islamic countries have been subjected to westernisation. There is now a McDonalds beside a mosque (house of prayer), movies are not censored any more, and some islamic countries even allow topless dancing. All this came about because of foreign (mostly western) labour that temporarily moved to those countries on work contracts, mostly the oil industry. Western "entertainment havens" had to be set up to make these contract workers "feel at home". In the eyes of these fanatics, their country, their motherland has been raped, their religion has been ridiculed, their beliefs are being laughed at. They have since and are now engaged in "killing the bastard that raped their motherland". This is no different from the beliefs of Timothy McVeigh (the Oklahoma city bomber). Very fortunately he was only one son.

    The very scary thing is that this extreme-islamic motherland has many many sons (and daughters) and they all see it the same way and constantly recruit more and more sons and daughters to "protect/avenge their motherland". You will notice, however, that it is almost exclusively the sons who are engaged in this act of revenge-killing (confirming the earlier example I gave). The daughters are simply engaged in screaming and calling for help.

    So now you see why this worries me just a little. I have no doubt that the US army/navy force is the most advanced on earth and that they can blow the planet out of existence in under 15 minutes, let alone capture one insignificant religious fanatic by the name Oussama Bin Laden. My concern is that no-one is looking at the core of the problem. If only the US and other western allies collectively engaged in a simple PR campaign to educate the people of all islamic nations of everyone's wishes of good will and peaceful coexistence, this would be solved once and for all. It is not the arab governments that need this PR campaign. It is the ordinary people within those governments. It is there that this fanatical extreme behaviour is born in a controlled environment, a byproduct of being isolated from the rest of the world.

    Some of this is very simple psychology. Just as the kid in school that was isolated and ridiculed and laughed at finally lashed out and killed half his class, so are some of this people lashing out for being isolated and ridiculed for so long. Like I said, only some of this is very simple psychology. The rest is ...... simply scary.....

    SillyAlien

    I believe that there is fear of threats made on both sides that is creating this, it is an unfortunate side effect of some 6500+ people that lost their life...

    A new fear has arrisen with the threat of "Holly War", a closer look into the Koran has been taken and Muslim people here have been questioned on it, it is not good news and the people are now becomming aware of what the Islamic religion feels about other religions and what "The West" could mean... It doesn't look as if peaceful coexistance is a compatible option... I don't think there will be much talk implemented on part of the US people to resolve this now...

    This is what I meant by flushing the terrestrial toilet...

    Glitch

    Leave a comment:


  • Al Zander
    replied
    The other scary thing...

    The other thing that scares me is the Mayan calendar. Everyone breathed a collective sigh of relief when the world did not end at the new millennium on Jan.01 200, or at the real millennium on Jan.01 2001.

    We now have the Mayan calendar to look forward to. According to this accurate forecasting tool, this cycle of civilization can start packing its bags somewhere around 2012.

    Gee.... I wonder how my RRSP's are doing

    Leave a comment:


  • Al Zander
    replied
    Apprehension sets in..

    Very rarely do things scare me, but as I study this more and more does the magnitude of the problem become apparent ...... and friends, it scares me.

    Horrible events! Terrible consequences ..... A little insight into how these crazy fanatics think and why this will be such a difficult fight.

    Imagine for a second the following ..... You go to visit your mother one evening and, as you approach the house, you hear screams. You run inside and, to your absolute horror, see that your beloved mother is being sexually assaulted (raped) by a stranger. At that very moment ...... what exactly would you do?

    Chances are, if you are a female you will scream as loud as you can and call for police/help. If you are male, 99.99% of you will do exactly the same thing ..... kill the bastard!

    In the eyes of these crazy religious fanatics this is exactly what they are doing : killing the bastard (the latter being the United States). For years now the very reserved islamic countries have been subjected to westernisation. There is now a McDonalds beside a mosque (house of prayer), movies are not censored any more, and some islamic countries even allow topless dancing. All this came about because of foreign (mostly western) labour that temporarily moved to those countries on work contracts, mostly the oil industry. Western "entertainment havens" had to be set up to make these contract workers "feel at home". In the eyes of these fanatics, their country, their motherland has been raped, their religion has been ridiculed, their beliefs are being laughed at. They have since and are now engaged in "killing the bastard that raped their motherland". This is no different from the beliefs of Timothy McVeigh (the Oklahoma city bomber). Very fortunately he was only one son.

    The very scary thing is that this extreme-islamic motherland has many many sons (and daughters) and they all see it the same way and constantly recruit more and more sons and daughters to "protect/avenge their motherland". You will notice, however, that it is almost exclusively the sons who are engaged in this act of revenge-killing (confirming the earlier example I gave). The daughters are simply engaged in screaming and calling for help.

    So now you see why this worries me just a little. I have no doubt that the US army/navy force is the most advanced on earth and that they can blow the planet out of existence in under 15 minutes, let alone capture one insignificant religious fanatic by the name Oussama Bin Laden. My concern is that no-one is looking at the core of the problem. If only the US and other western allies collectively engaged in a simple PR campaign to educate the people of all islamic nations of everyone's wishes of good will and peaceful coexistence, this would be solved once and for all. It is not the arab governments that need this PR campaign. It is the ordinary people within those governments. It is there that this fanatical extreme behaviour is born in a controlled environment, a byproduct of being isolated from the rest of the world.

    Some of this is very simple psychology. Just as the kid in school that was isolated and ridiculed and laughed at finally lashed out and killed half his class, so are some of this people lashing out for being isolated and ridiculed for so long. Like I said, only some of this is very simple psychology. The rest is ...... simply scary.....

    SillyAlien

    Leave a comment:


  • Glitch
    replied
    Originally posted by Jedito

    I repeat!.

    USA has trained, supported and finnanced to Osama Bin Laden.
    Not NATO, CIA do it.
    We are not without our failures being comprised of humans, the case is not closed yet... Once a failure is discovered, it is corrected... The US did place the taliban in power at the request of Pakistan as they stated that the taliban would be the best choice for afghanistan... 138 million anually in aid, how much of that did they use for weapons... It's like giving money to a bum on the side of the street, he just buys more booze or in this case, weapons... CIA has had very little to do with that region other than observation, it's focus has been in your area... for that matter what they did down there landed most of them getting pink slipped...


    Installing Dictatorship all over Latin America, doesn't look the correct way to defend the democracy. Right?
    Maybe you should make your case with NATO, this would be the democratic thing to do...

    But you will have to consider that there will be more intervention within your gov't, the question you need to ask yourself is will this be a change for the better or worse...

    At present, the world is always changing, you do have the ability to make a difference within your own country by your own peoples hand, and trust me, it feels alot better to do it all on your own without the aid of another entity... But if your case presented to NATO denotes a change required, it can make it alot easier and quicker for you...

    Glitch
    Last edited by Glitch; Sun 23 Sep '01, 5:15pm.

    Leave a comment:

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