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  • Originally posted by ManagerJosh View Post
    If I recalled correctly, vB4 has been in development for quite sometime...
    Originally posted by Dream View Post
    I wonder why you guys think vB4 is in development. Do we have any announcement of it?

    Also, why there's so high expectancy of it? You don't know what features it would have

    I can't think of a single reason you should wait for vB4 already.
    It's been said (by Devs ) that V4 isn't as far off into the distance that we might think. Granted, it's a few weeks since now, but I have a hunch we'll see great things this summer.

    Originally posted by ---MAD--- View Post
    Very true indeed but it depends on how patience people are and what they use their forum for (ie if its for a business, they dont give 2 damns about features etc).
    I'd say business-users and hobbyists alike would pick a product that's rock-stable over one with frequent upgrades with many bells&whistles any day of the week. Sure, the average Joe might not display as much patience and be a lot more vocal about it than the business-users, but when it comes down to it, we all keep returning to the rock-stable corner.

    I'm guessing we'll see a return of many users who have been vocal about the short-comings and the fact that they leave for another prooduct, only this time they'll be vocal about how good it is to come home again.
    Toddler from Hell

    Comment


    • Originally posted by whitetigergrowl View Post
      So, you would rather release products that have security issues, or are half baked THEN just keep bringing out updates to get it to do like what you wanted it to? That gives software a bad stigma if you do that. If you go by that mentality then Jelsoft/Vbulletin IS slow at making any progress and IS technically behind the competition. No CMS, No gallery, no download center, an admin cp thats missing critical features found in other forum software, an improved profile system, etc etc etc.

      If people see that you are a bit slower at putting out products, but when they are put out they are of higher quality and may be more robust, more people will gravitate towards that product than the ones that come out first but are so full of problems they get a bad rep for putting out less than quality products.
      As far as I am aware, the other products out there don't have any more security problems than vBulletin has had (which have been plenty, but that is the same with every product really). Adding more resources would speed up the process in general as well (if more developers were to come on board). Adding more products to the plate of the current developers, as is happening, is probably just going to slow things down even more in the near future.

      Yes, Jelsoft is still the best product out there, and I personally definitely do not plan on leaving. However, I would hope that Jelsoft does realize the disadvantages of not just their slow-ish releases but also the fact that they are so very secret about not just the products themselves but when they are coming.

      I know that all the very loyal vBulletin members will jump on me and give the same reasons given a million times before (we've all heard them, so I don't think there's many reasons to repeat them) (and I'm virtually a loyal fan of vB as well), but it's important to look at the big picture. After all, displeased customers that move do indeed translate into less business for them -- they make their money not from the very loyal members on this board but rather the masses out there. At the end of the day, Jelsoft is a company with a product, and we are all just customers. As paying customers, all of us are free to give feedback, and as a company, Jelsoft surely appreciates (or at least should, anyway) both positive and negative comments, if they are constructive. Overall, it seems like Jelsoft tries to ignore the constant requests for more information regarding future products, virtually not acknowledging it or at most repeating what other users in the thread would have already said about vB 3.0. This, coupled with the slow releases, is not so great for business.

      Obviously I don't know Jelsoft's financial standings and whether things have been hurting or not. Considering how good the product is, I'm sure things are still great. However, I think that the potential is definitely not being reached, and that there are many who aren't totally pleased is evident. Plus, while the difference between products may not be big now, as time goes by, others will keep getting better and better, which may indeed cause bigger problems -- there will be a point that for many, the hassles of moving to a different board system (which is probably what keeps many displeased people still around) will be outweighed by the benefits if other boards have really passed vB in terms of features. Simply releasing more information as long as general ETAs would help out a lot more and probably make people not care as much about the slow releases, knowing that things are actually being done.
      Last edited by Tailfeathers; Sat 5th May '07, 9:30am.
      Photography :: Bird Information and Help

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Tailfeathers View Post
        As far as I am aware, the other products out there don't have any more security problems than vBulletin has had (which have been plenty, but that is the same with every product really). Adding more resources would speed up the process in general as well (if more developers were to come on board). Adding more products to the plate of the current developers, as is happening, is probably just going to slow things down even more in the near future.

        Yes, Jelsoft is still the best product out there, and I personally definitely do not plan on leaving. However, I would hope that Jelsoft does realize the disadvantages of not just their slow-ish releases but also the fact that they are so very secret about not just the products themselves but when they are coming.

        I know that all the very loyal vBulletin members will jump on me and give the same reasons given a million times before (we've all heard them, so I don't think there's many reasons to repeat them) (and I'm virtually a loyal fan of vB as well), but it's important to look at the big picture. After all, displeased customers that move do indeed translate into less business for them -- they make their money not from the very loyal members on this board but rather the masses out there. At the end of the day, Jelsoft is a company with a product, and we are all just customers. As paying customers, all of us are free to give feedback, and as a company, Jelsoft surely appreciates (or at least should, anyway) both positive and negative comments, if they are constructive. Overall, it seems like Jelsoft tries to ignore the constant requests for more information regarding future products, virtually not acknowledging it or at most repeating what other users in the thread would have already said about vB 3.0. This, coupled with the slow releases, is not so great for business.

        Obviously I don't know Jelsoft's financial standings and whether things have been hurting or not. Considering how good the product is, I'm sure things are still great. However, I think that the potential is definitely not being reached, and that there are many who aren't totally pleased is evident. Plus, while the difference between products may not be big now, as time goes by, others will keep getting better and better, which may indeed cause bigger problems -- there will be a point that for many, the hassles of moving to a different board system (which is probably what keeps many displeased people still around) will be outweighed by the benefits if other boards have really passed vB in terms of features. Simply releasing more information as long as general ETAs would help out a lot more and probably make people not care as much about the slow releases, knowing that things are actually being done.
        Well explained. Its a shame to see no official reply from the business manager(s) or product manager yet or even the developers on this issue as it is definitely one of the negetive sides of vBulletin.

        Comment


        • As far as I am aware, the other products out there don't have any more security problems than vBulletin has had (which have been plenty, but that is the same with every product really). Adding more resources would speed up the process in general as well (if more developers were to come on board). Adding more products to the plate of the current developers, as is happening, is probably just going to slow things down even more in the near future.
          Just surf the VB forums. While many are happy with the current VB product and state, just as many it seems are getting rather upset at the slow pace of things and lack of actual competition to companies like IPS that offer suites of software that integrate with the forum.

          Yes, Jelsoft is still the best product out there, and I personally definitely do not plan on leaving.
          Thats an opinion. Not a fact.

          However, I would hope that Jelsoft does realize the disadvantages of not just their slow-ish releases but also the fact that they are so very secret about not just the products themselves but when they are coming.
          They are that way for good reason. Many companies and people in the past on their sites state things like, "The new version is coming May 2007!"...then nothing. People get disgruntled and build up this false hope that that is when it will actually be released, even if there was a good reason for a delay that may have come last minute. Then the threads and pm's start with people damn near demanding the product now. The world today looks for immediate gratification. If the product isn't out when stated, people get upset and problems start that usually slow the production down. Even saying, 'Arriving summer of 2007!' isn't good because if something delays it past that, things get ugly. I see it on the IPS forums for some of their products. Hardly a day goes by people aren't whining why something isn't out yet when it was even vaguely stated it would be out within or around that time period but with no actual confirmation.

          I know that all the very loyal vBulletin members will jump on me and give the same reasons given a million times before (we've all heard them, so I don't think there's many reasons to repeat them) (and I'm virtually a loyal fan of vB as well), but it's important to look at the big picture. After all, displeased customers that move do indeed translate into less business for them -- they make their money not from the very loyal members on this board but rather the masses out there. At the end of the day, Jelsoft is a company with a product, and we are all just customers. As paying customers, all of us are free to give feedback, and as a company, Jelsoft surely appreciates (or at least should, anyway) both positive and negative comments, if they are constructive. Overall, it seems like Jelsoft tries to ignore the constant requests for more information regarding future products, virtually not acknowledging it or at most repeating what other users in the thread would have already said about vB 3.0. This, coupled with the slow releases, is not so great for business.
          On the flip side it seems you want faster releases that may be of poorer quality. This also pushes people away. As I understand it Jelsoft is not a brick and mortar business like IPS is. Jelsoft is basically a bunch of people that are volunteering to work on the product. This also goes back to what I just said. If they announce something is or MAY be coming, then people usually hold them to that. Regardless of lack of time tables and such. Look at the fact along time ago (many years), Jelsoft hinted at a CMS. Yet nothing has come and people STILL hold them to that.

          Obviously I don't know Jelsoft's financial standings and whether things have been hurting or not. Considering how good the product is, I'm sure things are still great. However, I think that the potential is definitely not being reached, and that there are many who aren't totally pleased is evident. Plus, while the difference between products may not be big now, as time goes by, others will keep getting better and better, which may indeed cause bigger problems -- there will be a point that for many, the hassles of moving to a different board system (which is probably what keeps many displeased people still around) will be outweighed by the benefits if other boards have really passed vB in terms of features. Simply releasing more information as long as general ETAs would help out a lot more and probably make people not care as much about the slow releases, knowing that things are actually being done.
          General ETA's are useless. Plain and simple. Some of the people complaining about this now will likely shut up once VB releases a new product or upgrade and it surpasses what they may have originally thought. Think 3.5 and the generally unexpected plug-in system. Amongst other things.

          It seems people are almost willing to have poorer quality for quicker updates. Yet they then complain about the poorer quality. People just aren't satisfied about anything.

          And if VB changes the wrong thing(s) or starts going in the wrong direction they can also lose customers that way. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. I don't see their way of doing things changing all that much. People demand things, yet they aren't willing to give up other things (like longer production times instead) for those demands.

          It's always easier to be the taker. VB will do fine. And I'm pretty sure many people will shut up with the whining once the feature lists for VB 4 and even the new blogging system come about. There may be a good reason they are being silent. And some people just don't care or don't realize they may be helping slow things down because the devs and reps feel compelled to have to squash some of the things being said.

          I see this same sort of whining at the IPS forums. People are getting more and more demanding. Its almost sickening. And even if they give a vague time frame (i.e. Summer 2007), people will hold them to it, even if it was set back to the Fall for a valid reason. Damned if you do. Damned if you don't.

          Comment


          • whitetigergrowl, re-read your first reply and second reply at what Tailfeathers said ... and you'll notice you're contradicting yourself.

            So your first part of your reply is also an opinion and not a fact

            Comment


            • Originally posted by whitetigergrowl View Post
              As I understand it Jelsoft is not a brick and mortar business like IPS is. Jelsoft is basically a bunch of people that are volunteering to work on the product.
              You're understanding is completely false. Jelsoft has a physical office and infrastructure. Just not all of the staff work out of that office. None of the staff volunteer their time and do bill for it.
              Translations provided by Google.

              Wayne Luke
              The Rabid Badger - a vBulletin Cloud demonstration site.
              vBulletin 5 API - Full / Mobile
              Vote for your favorite feature requests and the bugs you want to see fixed.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by WielerArchieven View Post
                whitetigergrowl, re-read your first reply and second reply at what Tailfeathers said ... and you'll notice you're contradicting yourself.

                So your first part of your reply is also an opinion and not a fact
                At what point did I state anything as fact? Also, you may want to point out whats being contradicted as its very possible it may be more of a misunderstanding than a contradiction.

                Originally posted by Wayne Luke View Post
                You're understanding is completely false. Jelsoft has a physical office and infrastructure. Just not all of the staff work out of that office. None of the staff volunteer their time and do bill for it.
                Then again there is the super secret world of Jelsoft people aren't entirely aware of.

                One thing that has made me wonder is that Jelsoft and IPS are both initially located out of Great Britain as I recall. I'm curious as to which was does the better sales (i.e. which does better financially) and if there is a way to find out. It would of course fuel fire one way or the other, but for a private look would be interesting to see.

                Comment


                • There's probably some official register with the financial data, so you might google for it.
                  Toddler from Hell

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by whitetigergrowl View Post
                    At what point did I state anything as fact? Also, you may want to point out whats being contradicted as its very possible it may be more of a misunderstanding than a contradiction.



                    Then again there is the super secret world of Jelsoft people aren't entirely aware of.

                    One thing that has made me wonder is that Jelsoft and IPS are both initially located out of Great Britain as I recall. I'm curious as to which was does the better sales (i.e. which does better financially) and if there is a way to find out. It would of course fuel fire one way or the other, but for a private look would be interesting to see.
                    You said basically, not probably .. you posted what you thought it was, and you were wrong .. so we correct you with providing the correct information.

                    That's all.

                    That said, IPS might initially be from the UK, but they're a US company now. Our public forums are not the place to discuss IPS or any companies financial situation (or details).

                    Comment


                    • Simple speculation regarding that, which can be very relevant to the discussion, doesn't hurt anyone -- it's not like anyone is posting figures or anything here (which even that I don't see as a huge deal -- countless companies reveal that info willingly anyway). When two people mention very little and general speculation regarding financial situations of companies in a totally relevant context to the discussion, and a staff member then comes in and tries to stop that, it really does, sadly, prove what I said about Jelsoft ignoring (and in this case, even forcing a stop) to any discussion that might seem slightly negative to Jelsoft.

                      To be honest, I have seen many occasions on these forums where staff members seem to take negative comments (polite, constructive ones even) regarding Jelsoft as some kind of personal affront against them, which results in them replying as if they for some reason had to desperately defend themselves. At the very least there has been countless examples of very snappy replies, and sadly, even plenty of outright rude replies, which are totally uncalled for and which would never be accepted at any other company. This not only squelches discussions, but also makes Jelsoft look really bad.

                      I'd say it's time that Jelsoft take a more proactive approach to how it handles feedback. In the last parts of these threads, the only times any Jelsoft staff has commented has been to either correct something said, or to try to stop an aspect of the discussion. No real comments regarding the actual content of what people is saying, even though people (including me) have spent quite a while little writing often long, thoughtful (and polite, constructive) posts. Turning a blind eye and ignoring the customers will not change the reality of the situation. It's very disapponting to see Jelsoft, once again, only seeking out the positive and not listening to its customers.

                      I'm pretty much a loyal member of vBulletin and really do love the product and the staff, even if it doesn't come off that way in this thread. However, the company's attitude toward feedback, as well as the behavior of many staff members in posts, is completely wrong. Lots of potential -- and customers -- is being missed out here because of this. Jelsoft should be glad that (IMO) the product is still the best one out there, which makes overlooking these things a bit easier. But staying on this path will make it harder and harder for all the countless members who have, for example, requested more info about what's going on with Jelsoft only to be met by the same repeated response, a rude response, or no response whatsoever. Openness is VERY good for a company, I think, and Jelsoft is missing out on the many benefits of this -- it's such a simple way to please so many people. I'm sure I'll be dismissed, though, as just one single dissatisfied user who thus doesn't really matter (when I'm in fact pretty satisfied and just wish for Jelsoft to become even better by improving in certain areas where they, like all companies, could do better).
                      Last edited by Tailfeathers; Sun 6th May '07, 3:01am.
                      Photography :: Bird Information and Help

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by whitetigergrowl View Post
                        Just surf the VB forums. While many are happy with the current VB product and state, just as many it seems are getting rather upset at the slow pace of things and lack of actual competition to companies like IPS that offer suites of software that integrate with the forum.



                        Thats an opinion. Not a fact.



                        They are that way for good reason. Many companies and people in the past on their sites state things like, "The new version is coming May 2007!"...then nothing. People get disgruntled and build up this false hope that that is when it will actually be released, even if there was a good reason for a delay that may have come last minute. Then the threads and pm's start with people damn near demanding the product now. The world today looks for immediate gratification. If the product isn't out when stated, people get upset and problems start that usually slow the production down. Even saying, 'Arriving summer of 2007!' isn't good because if something delays it past that, things get ugly. I see it on the IPS forums for some of their products. Hardly a day goes by people aren't whining why something isn't out yet when it was even vaguely stated it would be out within or around that time period but with no actual confirmation.



                        On the flip side it seems you want faster releases that may be of poorer quality. This also pushes people away. As I understand it Jelsoft is not a brick and mortar business like IPS is. Jelsoft is basically a bunch of people that are volunteering to work on the product. This also goes back to what I just said. If they announce something is or MAY be coming, then people usually hold them to that. Regardless of lack of time tables and such. Look at the fact along time ago (many years), Jelsoft hinted at a CMS. Yet nothing has come and people STILL hold them to that.



                        General ETA's are useless. Plain and simple. Some of the people complaining about this now will likely shut up once VB releases a new product or upgrade and it surpasses what they may have originally thought. Think 3.5 and the generally unexpected plug-in system. Amongst other things.

                        It seems people are almost willing to have poorer quality for quicker updates. Yet they then complain about the poorer quality. People just aren't satisfied about anything.

                        And if VB changes the wrong thing(s) or starts going in the wrong direction they can also lose customers that way. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. I don't see their way of doing things changing all that much. People demand things, yet they aren't willing to give up other things (like longer production times instead) for those demands.

                        It's always easier to be the taker. VB will do fine. And I'm pretty sure many people will shut up with the whining once the feature lists for VB 4 and even the new blogging system come about. There may be a good reason they are being silent. And some people just don't care or don't realize they may be helping slow things down because the devs and reps feel compelled to have to squash some of the things being said.

                        I see this same sort of whining at the IPS forums. People are getting more and more demanding. Its almost sickening. And even if they give a vague time frame (i.e. Summer 2007), people will hold them to it, even if it was set back to the Fall for a valid reason. Damned if you do. Damned if you don't.
                        The main reason I think people see vBulletin as being slow is that IPB for example has updated so many things an released so many new addons that vBulletin simply has not and we don't even know if the have the intention to. Although we have started to see some progress now which is great but it seems vBulletin 4.0 is at the bottom of the pile of work now.

                        Comment


                        • Amount of sales > Gross/net earnings doesn't necessarily reflect the quality of a product and level of service.
                          Sometimes these aspects can actually clash.
                          For example, I'd be tickled pink if vB would increase their staff ten-fold and provide us with a free customization service.
                          Sales would increase, and we'd benefit by having advance use of new features and functionalities, but it would take a big chunk out of their 'bottom line' ... even turn vB into a charitable NP organization.
                          Mark

                          Comment


                          • Certainly -- a good balance has to be reached. Considering how much work vB demands (especially with all the good, heavy competition these days), and considering that things were already pretty strained on the staff, it seemed, if one can judge that by the speed of releases, then giving them more work in terms of whole new products without increasing the developer staff number surely then just bodes badly for vB itself and hurts things further.
                            Photography :: Bird Information and Help

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Tailfeathers View Post
                              Certainly -- a good balance has to be reached. Considering how much work vB demands (especially with all the good, heavy competition these days), and considering that things were already pretty strained on the staff, it seemed, if one can judge that by the speed of releases, then giving them more work in terms of whole new products without increasing the developer staff number surely then just bodes badly for vB itself and hurts things further.
                              Exactly .

                              Comment


                              • Ooo, cool stuff, Jelsoft are hiring another developer . Paul M, this is your chance :P.

                                Comment

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