Originally posted by ManagerJosh
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Best Examples of Tableless Web Designs?
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Originally posted by Shining ArcanineI said "you'd" which is a contraction of "you would" meaning if and/or when vBulletin is designed tablelessly, not right now.
Originally posted by Shining ArcanineThat sounds great, I can't wait.
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Originally posted by Faruk"extremely easily" ? "just styling your forums" ?
Sorry, but it requires one to completely rewrite most of vBulletin's templates to make a real XHTML/CSS version of vB3. And you know how many templates there are... O_O
Originally posted by FarukThe dev's probably will not do so for another 4-5 years, which is why I'm doing it on my own:
UNITY Project
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The UNITY project is all about changing vBulletin to be more accessible and flexible, as well as more extensible and therefore powerful. UNITY aims to rewrite all of vBulletin 3's templates, replacing the tables and nested tables with clean, semantic markup.
Eventual goal of UNITY:
To have 1 single vB template set that can be used for many completely different styles, just like the CSS Zen Garden. Benefits:
- Styles will be more manageable, as they exist solely in the CSS files
- Forums will be much lighter (page weight) and render faster
- Upgrading vBulletin will not require you to do a lot of template work anymore - if any serious issues are in a template, then the UNITY styleset/templateset will be updated and you can just overwrite yuors with the new one without problems - all styles will immediately be updated
- Increased accessibility - Google no longer needs your Archive to have a clean way of spidering your content; additionally, the semantic elements in UNITY are superior to the elements in the vB archive, and Google *loves* semantic markup.
- No need for special PDA-compatible versions of your site anymore, if you care to support the use of those
- incredible flexibility in styling pages
- Best of all: COMPLETELY FREE (including all styles I'll make for it)
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You can report piracy here: http://www.vBulletin.com/piracy.php
I removed the URL from your post and added it to our piracy database for check up.
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Oh, and uh, most if not all of these are all table-less:
(taken from www.kurafire.net )
Bloggers I've met
Anne van Kesteren
Arthur Lugtigheid
Bobby van der Sluis
Didier Hilhorst
Egor Kloos
Hayo Bethlehem
Mark Wubben
Other sites
A List Apart
A Whole Lotta Nothing
Adactio
Andy Budd
Anil Dash
Authentic Boredom
Clagnut
CSS Destroy
CSS Discuss
CSS Zen Garden
Cutting Edge CSS
Daring Fireball
Design by Fire
Dive into Mark
Dunstan Orchard
Eris
Extension In Use
Functioning Form
goer.org
graphicPUSH
Hicksdesign
Meyerweb
molly.com
Obvious Diversion
Phil Ringnalda
Ryan Brill
Shaun Inman
Simon Willison
SimpleBits
Stopdesign
The Weekly Standards
What Do I Know
Veerle
Web Standards Awards
Web Standards Project
Webgraphics
Whitespace
Zooiblog
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replying to many...
Originally posted by ManagerJoshDang...after seeing all this, we gotta get tutorials and guides
* UNITY is described below.
Originally posted by jamslamNobody ever said to stop using tables, they said to stop using tables for building a design. Tables should always be used for tabular data, and using CSS and no tables to present tabular data is horrible practice.
Thusly, vBulletin uses tables where they are supposed to be used.
vB can still be way more table-free than it is today.
Originally posted by Shining ArcanineIs this just a trend?
"extremely easily" ? "just styling your forums" ?
Sorry, but it requires one to completely rewrite most of vBulletin's templates to make a real XHTML/CSS version of vB3. And you know how many templates there are... O_O
Originally posted by Shining ArcanineIt doesn't only use tables for its design. It also uses them to ensure backwards compatibility (personally I'd like the devs to make a 2nd optionally downloadable style that is designed without outdated rendering engines into consideration).
UNITY Project
---------------
The UNITY project is all about changing vBulletin to be more accessible and flexible, as well as more extensible and therefore powerful. UNITY aims to rewrite all of vBulletin 3's templates, replacing the tables and nested tables with clean, semantic markup.
Eventual goal of UNITY:
To have 1 single vB template set that can be used for many completely different styles, just like the CSS Zen Garden. Benefits:
- Styles will be more manageable, as they exist solely in the CSS files
- Forums will be much lighter (page weight) and render faster
- Upgrading vBulletin will not require you to do a lot of template work anymore - if any serious issues are in a template, then the UNITY styleset/templateset will be updated and you can just overwrite yuors with the new one without problems - all styles will immediately be updated
- Increased accessibility - Google no longer needs your Archive to have a clean way of spidering your content; additionally, the semantic elements in UNITY are superior to the elements in the vB archive, and Google *loves* semantic markup.
- No need for special PDA-compatible versions of your site anymore, if you care to support the use of those
- incredible flexibility in styling pages
- Best of all: COMPLETELY FREE (including all styles I'll make for it)
Originally posted by Shining ArcanineUnfortunately, the most used browser in the world doesn't have a modern rendering engine. The mozilla foundation is beginning to resolve that issue through.
Originally posted by PBChannelAny plans to take vBulletin in this direction?
Originally posted by ZacheryI personaly, do not see vbulletin EVER going tableless, at least as of current, There are a very who can do very well designed full CSS tableless designs, but that is not true for all users and all browsers
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Originally posted by Wayne LukeConsider that 1 out of 4 new customers, that I have spoken to in the last year, use Frontpage to manage their webdesign and vBulletin. Another 25% decided they were going to run a website after seeing "a cool site" on the Internet on a subject they liked. They don't even know what HTML or CSS is and yet they want to change colors, upload new graphics and so forth.
They are going to get their instructions on webpage building from tutorials and books that have been around for years and don't cover CSS-Based design. By completely going to such a design, the support levels are going to at least double. Heck, probably more than that. We already have customers who purchase telephone support and call for every little template change, sometimes 15-20 times a day.
If we spend all our time telling people how to make add a column to the right of their forums for advertisement, there won't be time for anything else.
By the way, didn't someone from Jelsoft mention that Jelsoft wanted to have additional styles that you could download from your member's area. Why couldn't you write this and make this one of them?
Originally posted by jamslamSome people don't like hacks and think they shouldn't be used- others don't mind. I don't mind(as it improves accessbility across browsers)...
Originally posted by jamslamHow is it incorrect...? It looks perfectly fine.. lol...
Originally posted by jamslamThat requires javascript, though...
Originally posted by MetalGearMasterHow are css hacks a bad thing? If they work and allow multiple browsers to be fully supported, then whats the problem?
MGM out
Originally posted by jamslamWell, an argument might be that your stepping away from the CSS recommendation, as your are relying on a bug in a browser (or something that isn't supported) in order for something to work. Which generally isn't good practice. I however think using CSS hacks gracefully is perfectly fine, esepcially if it helps.
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Originally posted by MetalGearMasterHow are css hacks a bad thing? If they work and allow multiple browsers to be fully supported, then whats the problem?
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Originally posted by jamslamThe hacks I used are necessary... If I don't use them, it might still work, but accessiblity drops.
Some people don't like hacks and think they shouldn't be used- others don't mind. I don't mind(as it improves accessbility across browsers)...
The width of the menus in your sidebar is incorrect in IE through. It is minor but it is something I would be banging my head over if you was you.
You don't, you use tables for that
That requires javascript, though...[/QUOTE]
How are css hacks a bad thing? If they work and allow multiple browsers to be fully supported, then whats the problem?
MGM out
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Originally posted by Shining ArcanineI like how you padded your CSS. I see that you spent time hacking it through, which shouldn't have been necessary.
Some people don't like hacks and think they shouldn't be used- others don't mind. I don't mind(as it improves accessbility across browsers)...
The width of the menus in your sidebar is incorrect in IE through. It is minor but it is something I would be banging my head over if you was you.[/QUOTE]
How is it incorrect...? It looks perfectly fine.. lol...
Originally posted by DeaconxgpHow would I define in CSS that I wanted 2 rows of data or one column lined up vertically etc.
Originally posted by Shining ArcanineWould Jelsoft consider bundling IE7 with vBulletin:
http://dean.edwards.name/IE7/
That should take care of most of the CSS problems.
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That, youd generally use tables for... The best idea of 'tableless' designs are those that do the general layout without tables (ie, navigation area, content area, header area), all done using CSS. You can specify that say, the an area will take this many pixels (say 300x400), or you can set to be free flowing (ie, resize based on content, usually limiting the width), you can even position it at exactly the pixels you want, or inherit its position from a previous 'block'.
It sounds confusing, but once you get into it, its kinda cool.
I designed a couple of websites myself:
http://www.khuffie.com
http://www.gkryerson.com
http://64.191.8.200/ <-- I'm still working on this one, might take a while since its more complicated
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CSS has alot more than colors and backgrounds, you can set positions height widths the list goes on about alot of things.
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i've never quite understood how you design specifically from CSS. correct me if i'm wrong but CSS (Cascaded Style Sheets) only set the attributes of your site like font color, background color etc...how are people manipulating their style sheets to mimic tables? How would I define in CSS that I wanted 2 rows of data or one column lined up vertically etc.
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