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  • #31
    After reading some of this thread I have to wonder what is so wrong with using tables as a layout tool? My priorities are simple, make it so the majority of people can see it the way I want them to see it. If it's not standards compliant, who cares as long as they can all see it? If all browsers worked the same way and showed everything the same way then sure I'd make sure my code was compliant, but seeing as this isn't the case I tend to look for the happy medium between them.


    Cheers,
    Robert
    Visit NoizPollution.com // Your Music Source

    Do not PM or email me for support, you will not receive a response. Please post all requests for support in the main vBulletin forums or via the support system in the main members section of the site.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by 662C
      After reading some of this thread I have to wonder what is so wrong with using tables as a layout tool? My priorities are simple, make it so the majority of people can see it the way I want them to see it. If it's not standards compliant, who cares as long as they can all see it? If all browsers worked the same way and showed everything the same way then sure I'd make sure my code was compliant, but seeing as this isn't the case I tend to look for the happy medium between them.


      Cheers,
      Robert
      1. Tables were not designed to be used for layouts; they were designed to be the web equivalent of software such as Microsoft Excel.
      2. Tables are extremely difficult to maintain in the long term and their complexity grows exponentially with additional layout elements.
      3. Tables require much more storage space than divs, thus requiring more bandwidth.
      4. Tables take longer for browsers to render. A table based site would take forever to render on an older computer (200MHz should be good for comparison purposes) while a div based version would probably load almost instantly.
      Those are a few reasons. List items 2, 3 and 4 state that tables are more expensive in terms of storage space, development time, maintaince time, bandwidth and electricity (the majority of extra electricity used is used at clients' PCs).

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      • #33
        Well I guess that's me told, can you (unless you already have in this thread) link me to an example of divs being a stable substitute for a complex table structure which won't fall apart because certain browsers aren't fully compliant? If you already have just say and I'll have a look through the thread.
        Visit NoizPollution.com // Your Music Source

        Do not PM or email me for support, you will not receive a response. Please post all requests for support in the main vBulletin forums or via the support system in the main members section of the site.

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        • #34
          Faruk has already posted several good examples.

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          • #35
            I agree with tables being less inline code, but the ammount of CSS to make your divs show correctly i would doubt would be less total code.

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            • #36
              Repetition of less information and browser caching significantly reduce that by quite a bit.

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              • #37
                But if it is a static htmlpage, then the browser will cache the page as well

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Zachery
                  But if it is a static htmlpage, then the browser will cache the page as well
                  1. The page will be much smaller.
                  2. That information won't have to be loaded for the next page loaded, the page after the next page and so on.
                  By the way, the bandwidth savings for an external stylesheet vs an internal stylesheet is not with a single page but with many pages, hence why it is external in the first place.

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                  • #39
                    I am surprised that no one's voted for Standards? Wha? Isn't CSS what you use for link hovers? Does that mean everybody now uses CSS or that you just didn't want to look stupid because you have no idea what it is?

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                    • #40
                      This poll is never going to be representative: only people who know what the topic means will open the thread and participate, others will at most click to see if it's anything they might recognize (and then quickly flee from the weird people argueing about abbreviations and acronyms).

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by MrNase
                        LeeCHeSSS: HTML and CSS are markup languages... strictly speaking you can't call someone who uses HTML and CSS a 'developer'.
                        "Developer" and "programmer" are two completely different terms. Someone who makes sites using only HTML and CSS, and no programming language like PHP or a database like MySQL, is still a Webdeveloper. You can't call him or her a Webprogrammer, but they're very much a Webdeveloper.

                        (just to clear that up ^_^)

                        Originally posted by Zachery
                        I agree with tables being less inline code, but the ammount of CSS to make your divs show correctly i would doubt would be less total code.
                        Not really. Just check the Slashdot Retooling article on A List Apart. Plenty big CSS, still much smaller in total.

                        Also, the SGA design I made uses a fair bit of CSS (in 3 files for optimal degredation in less-CSS-compliant browsers, like IE 4 / netscape 4.7), but if I would've done that design in the really old table-based way, each separate page would contain about 5-10 KB more HTML at least. Now, users have one single 8KB load on their first visit to the site, then it gets cached (most likely, anyway), and it's done.

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                        • #42
                          I'm really happy to see an increase in concern about CSS among vBulletin community.
                          I wouldn't like to think it's only a fad...I hope not.


                          A code by fledgling CSS user.
                          HTML Code:
                          <html>
                          <head>
                          <title>DIV:Disease In Validation</title>
                          </head>
                          <body>
                          <div id="body">
                            <div id="header">
                              <div class="left">
                                <div class="smallfont">
                                  <div class="red">What is standard?</div>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                            <div id="content">
                              <di...
                          Pure or Poor?

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Is that a serious question? 'poor' of course
                            That's the end of that!

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by tantei3
                              HTML Code:
                              <html>
                               <head>
                               <title>DIV: Disease In Validation</title>
                               </head>
                               <body>
                               <div id="body">
                                 <div id="header">
                                   <div class="left">
                                     <div class="smallfont">
                                       <div class="red">What is standard?</div>
                                     </div>
                                   </div>
                                 </div>
                                 <div id="content">
                                   <di...
                              Pure or Poor?
                              Try this instead:

                              HTML Code:
                              <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.1//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/DTD/xhtml11.dtd">
                               <html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">
                               <head>
                               	<title>Meaningful Clean Markup</title>
                               	<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1" />
                               </head>
                               <body id="top">
                               <h1>What are Standards?</h1>
                               <div id="content">
                               ....

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Whenever I design a site for someone or if I'm doing FAQs for my community, or anthing HTML, I validate it with W3C. CSS and XHTML.

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