Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

EU Announces Final MSFT Decision: "Near Monopoly;" New Windows Version Within 90 Days

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Originally posted by Breaker
    the only reason i am not using linux or something like that is most programs/games i use run on windows and windows alone. I would switch if i had the chance to something else, the day people realise that making programs for another OS other than Windows will be the day i switch
    There was a time a few years ago when i used to see mac and linux games quite a lot, obviously they didn't seel well because i haven't seen any recently.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Vile
      No, not quite, but this argument could be used for nearly everything.
      How so? IE is way behind in standards support and user friendly features (although at least that's coming in that SP2) mainly because they haven't had to put them in. When there is a lot of competition they are forced to make their products "good" if they want to stay in the market.

      Originally posted by Wayne Luke
      That is the fault of the Linux Companies and Apple, not Microsoft.
      Maybe so, but at least Apple is trying with their retail stores (and same with Firefox and their buttons)

      Originally posted by Wayne Luke
      When the product is not available, how do you expect people to do a comparison? When there is no marketing materials how do you expect a person to do a comparison?
      By not asking salespeople, first of all. I learned early on that they don't give you the best deal for you, but the best deal for them. So I rarely ask them at all. Even if they do have Macs in their store a salesperson won't even mention them most of the time, so obviously that doesn't help.

      Originally posted by Wayne Luke
      So as an average Joe, I want to buy a computer. So I go into Best Buy or a similar store. I look at what they have. Then I decide to look at software to see what I can do with my new computer. As I am doing that I see two linux packages. Redhat Enterprise and Suse Linux. They are Operating Systems but I don't want to pay for an OS. All the computers have Windows on them for free, except one which comes with a package called Lindows however the machine looks poorly constructed compared to the Compaqs, HPs and eMachines in their shiny cases. There are also a few packages of software for the Macintosh system, but they don't even carry those computers anymore. Instead the salesman tells you that you have to drive 45 miles in city traffic which can take hours to purchase an Apple.

      In contrast there are hundreds of software packages for the Windows platform and many neat gadgets that you can add on to your Windows computer. In fact the boxes say "Made for Windows" with a bright sticker making it undeniable which system you want.

      Because of a lack of variety, shelfspace and marketing both Apple and the Linux distributors are telling consumers that if they want a unique computer then purchase from them. However, if you want variety, ease of purchase and expandability, purchase a Windows based computer.

      The average person is not going to purchase or research their first computer online, they are going to do it in the retail store. Sure they may see some iPod commercial or a commercial about switching to a Mac on television but those commercials do not tell you anything about the products themselves, just that they might make you look cool. However, the most successful products are not the ones with only the cool commercials, they are ones that secure shelfspace in the retail store by promising the retailer the ability to make a few dollars.
      Well said. My only response is that people need to realise that for most purposes, you can be just as productive (if not moreso, depending on the person) on a Mac or on Linux as you can with Windows. Personally, the argument that Windows has a billion more software titles doesn't bother me. Am I going to use all of them, or even half of them? Nope. What do I need with 5 thousand different varietys of word processors when I'm only going to use one or two? For most of my experiences I've rarely come across a type of program that didn't have at least one Mac equivilant (with exception to games). There was a short period of time when I installed Virtual PC but that was short lived (not because I didn't like it, but because I didn't need it). Yes, it is partially Apple's fault for not making this more clear to the average consumer, but back when I was in 6th grade I was one of them, and so was my dad, and instead of asking a salesperson he asked a few of his friends who showed him the pros and cons of both Windows and Mac and he made an informed decision and I've never disagreed with that decision. I think that if more people started asking people whos answers aren't driven by money only we might see more Macs/Linux computers out there.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by MasterMac
        Maybe so, but at least Apple is trying with their retail stores
        Are they? Before Apple opened up their stores, I could go to a dozen or so local locations to purchase Macintosh hardware and software. Since they opened them, not a single one exists locally anymore. They either went out of business or stopped carrying Apple Products. For me it is a 45 mile drive to Glendale, California to purchase Macintosh hardware. I won't purchase a full computer online.
        By not asking salespeople, first of all. I learned early on that they don't give you the best deal for you, but the best deal for them. So I rarely ask them at all. Even if they do have Macs in their store a salesperson won't even mention them most of the time, so obviously that doesn't help.
        This would be a fault of who? Salespeople are doing their job, however if there is no Macintosh hardware to be sold, how are they going to sell it anyway?
        For most of my experiences I've rarely come across a type of program that didn't have at least one Mac equivilant (with exception to games).
        Just one more comment... Games are the one of the predominant reasons people actually buy home computers. They are a very valid reason to decide what machine and OS to purchase.

        It is true people don't need 5 different word processors or all of the thousands of titles available but it does provide choice, diversity and varying levels of investment. That as well is a key reason to base a decision on.
        Translations provided by Google.

        Wayne Luke
        The Rabid Badger - a vBulletin Cloud demonstration site.
        vBulletin 5 API - Full / Mobile
        Vote for your favorite feature requests and the bugs you want to see fixed.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by hankster
          Netscape "made up" many html tags that were forced upon us. Back then they had 90%+ of the browser market and if they came out with something everyone started to use them. Tags such as the "image align" tag, embed, "td align" tag, font size tag and even the "b" and "i" tags were just a few of the tags Netscape made up before they were standards.

          As you notice many are now being done away with because they never should have been put into the standards in the first place.

          I see nothing "ground breaking" with the latest Gecko release. Yes, they may be more standards compliant but then the "Netscape" line of broswers have been on the market for 5 years longer then IE... it only took them 15+ years to become compliant... IE still has 5 years to to get to that point if we want to compare timelines.
          IE isn't at all compliant now, it won't be for XP SP2, and it's not looking good for Windows Longhorn either, Longhorn being quite a ways away.

          Netscape added some necessary tags, sure. Some are being done away with only to be replaced with the same thing by a different name. (ie. <b> => <strong>, <i> => <em>, etc) So they decided to change the names in the standards. Big deal.

          Microsoft's invented tags and attributes were there before, but they did it to make other browsers seem incompatible. Using the bgproperties="fixed" in MS FrontPage instead of background-attachment: fixed was just one of the ways they try to force themselves onto others. The method of attachment's always existed, but they made their own to make other browsers incompatible.
          "63,000 bugs in the code, 63,000 bugs, you get 1 whacked with a service pack, now there's 63,005 bugs in the code."
          "Before you critisize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you critisize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes."
          Utopia Software - Current Software: Utopia News Pro (news management system)

          Comment


          • #35
            don't agree with the fine, even for m$ that is a sizeable chunk out of anybody's wallet and for what really, including their own media player with their own OS??? sometimes you really have to think the bad way this world is going, and the people who can make stupid decisions like this, i think it would have been much fairer if m$ were instead forced to include an "easy" way to uninstall wmp, from add/remove say....

            Comment


            • #36
              Netscape added some necessary tags
              That is YOUR opinion, I say they were not necessary and we were forced to use Netscape's way of defining tags or no way at all. This was all done without respect for any other broswer on the market. Why is what they did any different then what MS did?

              So they decided to change the names in the standards. Big deal.
              Yes, it IS a big deal. Just because they had 90%+ of the market they decided they could do anything they wanted without regard to any other company... and in fact they may have done it to harm other browsers on the market.

              Microsoft's invented tags and attributes were there before, but they did it to make other browsers seem incompatible. Using the bgproperties="fixed" in MS FrontPage instead of background-attachment: fixed was just one of the ways they try to force themselves onto others.
              And Netscape did the same thing. Where strong and em was already a standard, they created b and i to make it look like other browsers were broken.

              Face it, Netscape lost because of poor browser performance and poor company decisions.

              Comment


              • #37
                And there is another company that slit its own wrists. Real Media used to be the best web video media on the market. The latest players are the most invasive piece of software that you can install... as bad a Gator. With its constant pop-ups begging you to buy the “paid” version and constant phoning home, I will never install it again.



                The quality of its web video used to be second to none and the creation software used to be reasonable. Now the video quality is poor and even upgrades to Real Producer costs $300.00 Real has no one to blame but themselves (it’s well documented the mistakes they have made) for the problems they are having.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by hankster
                  Face it, Netscape lost because of poor browser performance and poor company decisions.
                  Poor company decisions? They never had a chance when MS packaged IE with it's OS.

                  So Netscape was further innovating even though they'd held the most marketshare (I don't know - I'm asking)? Would Microsoft do that?
                  "63,000 bugs in the code, 63,000 bugs, you get 1 whacked with a service pack, now there's 63,005 bugs in the code."
                  "Before you critisize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you critisize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes."
                  Utopia Software - Current Software: Utopia News Pro (news management system)

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by CeleronXT
                    Poor company decisions? They never had a chance when MS packaged IE with it's OS.
                    Yes, they did. Netscape didn't lose market share until after Internet Explorer 5.0 was released and they had no comparible product. They lost market share because they dropped the ball. Many people didn't want to convert but they had no choice if they wanted to continue using a state of the art web browser.

                    They lost market share because their parent company (AOL) had no faith in the software and wouldn't even use it in their own products. That right there would have been significant marketshare. They lost marketshare because their server line was outdated and many people replaced it with Apache, more so than they did with IIS. Finally, the company was closed down after Microsoft effectively bought it with their $750 million payment to AOL. The fact of the issue is Netscape was having serious financial troubles from a flawed business model before Internet Explorer 3 was ever released. Just take a look at their SEC filings.
                    Translations provided by Google.

                    Wayne Luke
                    The Rabid Badger - a vBulletin Cloud demonstration site.
                    vBulletin 5 API - Full / Mobile
                    Vote for your favorite feature requests and the bugs you want to see fixed.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      So Netscape was further innovating even though they'd held the most marketshare (I don't know - I'm asking)?
                      So when Netscape introduces non-standard tags you call it innovating. When MS does it you call it hurting the market. You can't have it both ways no matter how much to try to justify it. Your arguement is not based on facts... better do a little studying on browser history before you make any more comments as foolish as this....

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by MasterMac
                        By not asking salespeople, first of all. I learned early on that they don't give you the best deal for you, but the best deal for them. So I rarely ask them at all. Even if they do have Macs in their store a salesperson won't even mention them most of the time, so obviously that doesn't help.
                        So you're saying that Grandma who has never really cared about how the computer works or knows how to turn one on, shouldnt ask a sales person what she wants?

                        Sorry, your logic might stand for a tech-savy user (who already dont ask salespeople for opinions), but not for a non-tech-savy user.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by CeleronXT
                          IE isn't at all compliant now, it won't be for XP SP2, and it's not looking good for Windows Longhorn either, Longhorn being quite a ways away.
                          Proof?

                          IE is complient with much of the standard, heck it even does float:right better than the gecko engine!

                          Lets stop pulling over-generalised statements out of nowhere.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by merk
                            Proof?

                            IE is complient with much of the standard, heck it even does float:right better than the gecko engine!

                            Lets stop pulling over-generalised statements out of nowhere.
                            IE is compliant with a fraction of CSS1. Pretty sad seeing as CSS3 is on its way. That's simply a fact.

                            I have zero problems with float: right under Gecko.
                            "63,000 bugs in the code, 63,000 bugs, you get 1 whacked with a service pack, now there's 63,005 bugs in the code."
                            "Before you critisize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you critisize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes."
                            Utopia Software - Current Software: Utopia News Pro (news management system)

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by CeleronXT
                              IE is compliant with a fraction of CSS1. Pretty sad seeing as CSS3 is on its way. That's simply a fact.

                              I have zero problems with float: right under Gecko.
                              A fraction? exaggeration is oozing from your post.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by merk
                                A fraction? exaggeration is oozing from your post.
                                Not really, even if it was 100% compliant that would be a fraction... 100/100 yes, but still a fraction...

                                Comment

                                widgetinstance 262 (Related Topics) skipped due to lack of content & hide_module_if_empty option.
                                Working...
                                X